Stadium/Arena Saga Omnibus

[who do you think]

Why do so many people act like simply placing two teams in somewhat close proximity to one another = automatic rivalry? Or just two cities having a rivalry in one sport means that they'll definitely have a rivalry in another sport?

[IceCap]

3 hours ago, who do you think said:

Why are so many people act like simply placing two teams in somewhat close proximity to one another = automatic rivalry? Or just two cities having a rivalry in one sport means that they'll definitely have a rivalry in another sport?

Toronto and Montreal have always been rivals. They've been rivals for the spot of being Canada's economic and cultural centre, there's the French and English Canadian divide which the Montreal/Toronto dynamic encapsulates. And there are the sports rivalries that play off of that.

Maple Leafs vs Canadiens is probably the NHL's oldest continuous rivalry, and the Argos and Als are rivals in the CFL. The Blue Jays and Expos would likely have been rivals had the AL/NL format not kept them apart for most of their shared history. So I have no doubt that a Montreal team in the AL East would quickly become the Jays' top rivalry in no time.

 

One of the suggested essay topics I had as a second year undergrad history student taking the Canadian History Survey course was "In what ways did the Montreal Canadiens and Toronto Maple Leafs rivalry help define English and French relations in mid-20th century Canada?" I was boring and wrote about the Canadian military's unification and peacekeeping efforts instead, but the fact that it was a serious essay question in a history course at a top flight university shows that yeah. The Montreal/Toronto rivalry is a big deal in Canada.

 

 

[TBGKon]

First and foremost, I would hate to see the Rays leave town but if the split thing is a possibility.....

 

I had a strange thought earlier, and don't know if logistically it could happen but lets say Montreal gets a team full time.

 

- Relocate either the Rays or the Marlins franchise to Montreal and assign that team to the NL East.

- The remaining Florida team splits time in Miami and Tampa Bay.  Miami has a new stadium already, which would then require existing ownership to focus on a single venue in Tampa Bay rather than two including one in Montreal.

 

I don't know if a plan like this holds water because you'd have to decide who remains owner of the Florida team, what roster remains with the Florida team (maybe Montreal does some oddball dispersal draft where they choose from the Marlins and Rays rosters but the Florida team can protect a set number of players) but i'd think a split team sharing two cities in one state rather than a thousand miles and two countries could be more feasible....if it ever happens.

[BBTV]

In a perfect world, that's the best solution - I suggested as much a few pages ago - but there's myriad reasons it's impossible, one of which being Miami's investment in the Marlins stadium, two being Tampa/St. Pete's reluctance to build a new stadium. The true "Florida" Marlins in AL East would be great, but... 

[rmc523]

4 hours ago, BringBackTheVet said:

In a perfect world, that's the best solution - I suggested as much a few pages ago - but there's myriad reasons it's impossible, one of which being Miami's investment in the Marlins stadium, two being Tampa/St. Pete's reluctance to build a new stadium. The true "Florida" Marlins in AL East would be great, but... 

 

I mean.....in a perfect world, all 3 markets (Montreal, Tampa Bay, Miami) would be viable markets with near sellout crowds every night, and you wouldn't need any talk of split market teams.

[BBTV]

38 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

 

I mean.....in a perfect world, all 3 markets (Montreal, Tampa Bay, Miami) would be viable markets with near sellout crowds every night, and you wouldn't need any talk of split market teams.

 

“In a world in which we are free to implement perfect solutions to problems that were avoidable but happened anyway.”

 

 

[DG_YouKnowWhatThatMeans]

41 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

 

I mean.....in a perfect world, all 3 markets (Montreal, Tampa Bay, Miami) would be viable markets with near sellout crowds every night, and you wouldn't need any talk of split market teams.

 

I wonder if we now think the swap of Montreal for DC was worth it? DC seems to have embraced the Nationals as their team, and as a casual observer, I never hear any attendance issues there.

 

I think many of us would prefer a team in Montreal and not in one of Miami or Tampa, but that wasn't the option 15 years ago.

 

Remember when the Twins were almost contracted?!

[who do you think]

On 7/3/2019 at 8:29 PM, Ice_Cap said:

Toronto and Montreal have always been rivals. They've been rivals for the spot of being Canada's economic and cultural centre, there's the French and English Canadian divide which the Montreal/Toronto dynamic encapsulates. And there are the sports rivalries that play off of that.

Maple Leafs vs Canadiens is probably the NHL's oldest continuous rivalry, and the Argos and Als are rivals in the CFL. The Blue Jays and Expos would likely have been rivals had the AL/NL format not kept them apart for most of their shared history. So I have no doubt that a Montreal team in the AL East would quickly become the Jays' top rivalry in no time.

 

One of the suggested essay topics I had as a second year undergrad history student taking the Canadian History Survey course was "In what ways did the Montreal Canadiens and Toronto Maple Leafs rivalry help define English and French relations in mid-20th century Canada?" I was boring and wrote about the Canadian military's unification and peacekeeping efforts instead, but the fact that it was a serious essay question in a history course at a top flight university shows that yeah. The Montreal/Toronto rivalry is a big deal in Canada.

 

 

 

None of this answers my question. The Leafs and Habs have a deep animosity for each other in the sport that has, by far, the most cultural relevance in Canada. That's all well and good, but it doesn't make for an instant rivalry across all potential big league sports that could place teams in both cities.

 

Take Boston-New York in the States. In baseball, they have the fiercest, most historic rivalry in the game with Red Sox-Yankees. Patriots-Jets is a rivalry in the same way that the Roadrunner vs. Wile E. Coyote is a rivalry. It's one-sided and comical. In the winter sports, forget it. The Celtics and Knicks haven't given a damn about each other since John Havlicek and Willis Reed were playing. All the Bruins and Rangers have is the fact that they're both original six teams. Big deal. 

[colortv]

LeBron is at summer league wearing an "LA"  logo Lakers colored hat with a "LeBronLand" logo(aka Disneyland logo).

 

Guess where Disneyland is?

[The_Admiral]

Yes, that's precisely what this tedious CCSLC hobbyhorse needed, LeBron James wearing a shirt about himself

[IceCap]

3 hours ago, who do you think said:

None of this answers my question.

It does, actually. 

[Dynasty]

On-field success doesn't apply to New York and Boston; their fans both hate each other regardless.

[Quillz]

9 hours ago, colortv said:

LeBron is at summer league wearing an "LA"  logo Lakers colored hat with a "LeBronLand" logo(aka Disneyland logo).

 

Guess where Disneyland is?

Tokyo

[Red Wolf]

9 hours ago, the admiral said:

Yes, that's precisely what this tedious CCSLC hobbyhorse needed, LeBron James wearing a shirt about himself

 

I'm sorry, but if anybody that can shed light on the intricacies of Southern California geography, it's a basketball player from Northeastern Ohio. Please take your sarcasm elsewhere.

[Digby]

3 hours ago, Quillz said:

Tokyo

 

I thought it was Paris

[Sec19Row53]

On 7/2/2019 at 7:41 PM, Quillz said:

I agree with this in that history always belongs to the franchise/club/team and NOT the city. This is why I have a big problem with agreements where Oklahoma City can claim they won the 1979 championship, but cannot claim the Sonics identity. It's messy and we all know it's wrong. Simply put, the Thunder won the 1979 NBA Finals, with a note they were based in Seattle under a different name at the time. Simple and honest.

I agree with most of this, but semantics would have me say the Oklahoma City franchise won the 1979 NBA Championship. The Thunder did not win it.

[who do you think]

17 hours ago, Ice_Cap said:

It does, actually. 

 

No, it doesn't. Your entire post is MUH LEAFS-CANADIENS.

 

15 hours ago, Dolphins Dynasty said:

On-field success doesn't apply to New York and Boston; their fans both hate each other regardless.

 

In baseball and sometimes football, yes. In basketball and hockey, no.

[IceCap]

12 minutes ago, who do you think said:

No, it doesn't. Your entire post is MUH LEAFS-CANADIENS.

So thanks for admitting that you didn’t actually read my post. At best you skimmed it because I outlined how, even beyond sports, Montreal and Toronto have always been “rivals” within Canada, being the most influential cities in French and English Canada respectfully.

Seriously, I outlined how they’ve jockeyed for position of Canada’s largest city and economic centre and how this represents the divide between Canada’s two largest language groups. 

 

All of that’s in the post you didn’t read, so try doing that next time before being so dismissive.

 

EDIT- 

Here’s another fun factoid. 

The capital of Canada used to rotate between York (present-day Toronto) and Montreal to avoid offending one of them. 

This lasted until the creation of the Dominion government in 1867. Dominion status meant the need for a permanent capital, and so Ottawa was chosen. Why? Well among other things it’s halfway between Toronto and Montreal.

Edited July 6, 2019 by Ice_Cap

[who do you think]

19 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

So thanks for admitting that you didn’t actually read my post. At best you skimmed it because I outlined how, even beyond sports, Montreal and Toronto have always been “rivals” within Canada, being the most influential cities in French and English Canada respectfully.

Seriously, I outlined how they’ve jockeyed for position of Canada’s largest city and economic centre and how this represents the divide between Canada’s two largest language groups. 

 

All of that’s in the post you didn’t read, so try doing that next time before being so dismissive.

 

I read your entire post, slugger. Most of it was Leafs-Habs, and the part that wasn't Leafs-Habs was irrelevant.

 

Let's try this again. How does a suggested essay topic for one of your term papers guarantee a sports rivalry between Toronto and Montreal in a sport that isn't hockey (Alouettes-Argonauts isn't a rivalry)? You think Toronto and Montreal are the only two large cities in North America with built-in cultural differences that have been economic competitors with one another?

 

 

Quote

 

EDIT- 

Here’s another fun factoid. 

The capital of Canada used to rotate between York (present-day Toronto) and Montreal to avoid offending one of them. 

This lasted until the creation of the Dominion government in 1867. Dominion status meant the need for a permanent capital, and so Ottawa was chosen. Why? Well among other things it’s halfway between Toronto and Montreal.

 

 

Okay.

[IceCap]

12 minutes ago, who do you think said:

I read your entire post, slugger.

You know what I find hilarious, sparky? You whine about how unfair this place is, but you're nothing but unnecessarily confrontational.

 

12 minutes ago, who do you think said:

Most of it was Leafs-Habs, and the part that wasn't Leafs-Habs was irrelevant.

No, not really. You asked if there would be a Toronto/Montreal rivalry outside of Leafs/Habs and I explained that yes. Yes there would. You don't get to declare it "irrelevant" just because it disproves your point.

 

12 minutes ago, who do you think said:

(Alouettes-Argonauts isn't a rivalry)

Ah, see this is your problem. You've already made it up in your head that there is no reason a Toronto team and a Montreal team would be rivals beyond Maple Leafs/Canadiens. When someone proves you wrong by pointing out that 1) there are other Toronto and Montreal-based teams with rivalries and 2) that the Leafs/Canadiens rivalry is really an outgrowth of a rivalry between two cities that transcends sports you just get dismissive and declare it doesn't count. Sorry, that's not how that works. You don't get to dictate what facts are relevant or not.

 

So chief, here it is.

Toronto and Montreal have a rivalry that pre-dates even the establishment of the Canadian government as we know it today. The cities have always represented the cultural and economic epicentres of each of Canada's two largest language groups. Historically? The ascent of one's influence is paired with the loss of influence for the other. Habs/Leafs and Als/Argos sprung forth from this, because of course such a cultural rivalry between two cities would spill out into sports. Meaning that any Montreal team would be an immediate rival for the Blue Jays. Especially now that interleague is a regular occurrence.

 

So there's your answer. I'm sorry if it doesn't conform to what you already decided the answer in your head was going to be, but them's the breaks. Accept that maybe someone who's studied Canadian history and politics knows a bit more about this subject than you do.

 

12 minutes ago, who do you think said:

You think Toronto and Montreal are the only two large cities in North America with built-in cultural differences that have been economic competitors with one another?

I think that given the unique linguistic divide in Canada? Toronto vs Montreal is very much on a different level than, say, Boston vs New York. Or LA vs San Francisco.

 

Look, if you're not Canadian it probably seems odd. As someone who grew up in the country and studied this crap though? Yeah. I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt. Put a team in Montreal and they'll be the Jays' primary rival within a season.