When Sports Aesthetic Criticism Goes Bad

[Morgan33]

That's rich, that in your mind "making sure students don't use offensive language" must equate to "police state school" and "uniformed word police." No, rest assured it wasn't the case. It was just that if a teacher caught a student using the word "gay" in a derogatory manner they were informed that using that word in that manner wasn't acceptable.

I was being sarcastic, obviously your school was not a Police State but come on... Students referring to things as "Gay" really warrants punishment? Christ if everyone at the High School I went to got punished for calling objects gay, the teachers wouldn't be able to do their day job. And no this was not some intolerant, redneck school, it is one of Calgarys best. None of the people I knew who did this were gay bashers either. They we just mimicking something that had completely saturated mainstream television at the time. Whether or not that is still the case, I don't know because I don't watch television. But I find it extremely offensive that you would charactize everyone who did this as a bigot. Aside from a few bad apples (theres always at least one), I never witnessed any gay bashing going on there.

Phony Liberal? What does that even mean? I've identified as a liberal for most of my life. What exactly are you trying to say? That I'm really a conservative in disguise? Or that despite identifying with liberal political ideology I'm somehow not one? I'm curious. Please explain. As for the "ivory tower" part, wow. It's a very sad day when education is looked down upon.

Calling for further punishment of High School students who already embarassed themselves doesn't seem very Liberal to me , seems rather extreme. If they had used a slur like "F****t," it'd be a completely different story.

As for the Ivory Tower bit, I was not referring to your education. I was referring to what I percieved to be a condescening attitude. I don't know what your educational background is...

No one's trying to tell you how to use the English language, believe me. All we're saying is that, out of respect for your fellow man, don't use terms, words, or phrases that are offensive. It's not about controlling language it's about not being a hateful bigot. I'm truly sorry if you feel your freedom to call a black person a "n***er" or something you find lame "gay" is worth keeping over not disrespecting your fellow man.

Wow talk about putting words in ones mouth. I never said I wanted the right to call a Black Man the "N Word" or use a slur against any other minority. Thanks for labelling me as a bigot just because I happen to think calling a uniform gay is not worthy of punishment.

Oh yes, you got me there

The part you seem hung up about is that the target of the attack, the uniforms, are inanimate objects. What you fail to see is that the attack itself is the problem, the target is inconsequential. They felt the colour purple was lame, stupid. So they called them "gay." While the term itself is primarily just a descriptive word for homosexuals, when used by someone to describe something they find stupid it becomes a derogatory phrase. The students didn't like the uniforms, so they called them "gay." When that happened gay went from being a simple descriptive to being a derogatory slur. Much the like the example I used previously, Jew. It's just the name for a group of people on its own, but when used in the sentence "I Jewed that guy" it becomes a slur.

I'm not trying to tell you how the English language should work, by the way, simply explaining how it worked. Context matters. The kids in question didn't think "oh those uniforms are purple, and the homosexual community identifies with purple, therefore we'll simply honour this fact and call the uniforms gay!"

They thought "that uniform is purple, purple is lame, it's so gay!"

See? Context.

So uniforms have sexual preferences? News to me As I've said a million times, what they did was stupid but calling for punishment is excessive and ridiculous.

[BrandMooreArt]

lol, right behind ya

[IceCap]

That's rich, that in your mind "making sure students don't use offensive language" must equate to "police state school" and "uniformed word police." No, rest assured it wasn't the case. It was just that if a teacher caught a student using the word "gay" in a derogatory manner they were informed that using that word in that manner wasn't acceptable.

I was being sarcastic, obviously your school was not a Police State but come on... Students referring to things as "Gay" really warrants punishment? Christ if everyone at the High School I went to got punished for calling objects gay, the teachers wouldn't be able to do their day job. And no this was not some intolerant, redneck school, it is one of Calgarys best. None of the people I knew who did this were gay bashers either. They we just mimicking something that had completely saturated mainstream television at the time. Whether or not that is still the case, I don't know because I don't watch television. But I find it extremely offensive that you would charactize everyone who did this as a bigot. Aside from a few bad apples (theres always at least one), I never witnessed any gay bashing going on there.

You seem rather hung up on the whole punishment thing....I'll address that in a bit.

As for the highlighted bit, there's a difference between being a bigot and showing bigoted behaviour. You said it yourself, kids generally pick this stuff up from mainstream entertainment. Not saying everyone who uses the term "gay" in a derogatory manner is a bigot, but they are mimicking bigoted behaviour. The two are not mutually exclusive.

If you want to get on my case about that, then I'll tell you yes, it is bigoted behaviour to use the name of a minority group in a derogatory manner.

Phony Liberal? What does that even mean? I've identified as a liberal for most of my life. What exactly are you trying to say? That I'm really a conservative in disguise? Or that despite identifying with liberal political ideology I'm somehow not one? I'm curious. Please explain. As for the "ivory tower" part, wow. It's a very sad day when education is looked down upon.

Calling for further punishment of High School students who already embarassed themselves doesn't seem very Liberal to me , seems rather extreme. If they had used a slur like "F****t," it'd be a completely different story.

Again with the punishment thing....

As for the "liberal" bit, Morgo, your view of what constitutes a "liberal" seems extremely warped. I can't help that, but rest assured even liberals want to see people who do wrong punished.

As for the Ivory Tower bit, I was not referring to your education. I was referring to what I percieved to be a condescening attitude. I don't know what your educational background is...

Actually you just proved my point. I wasn't talking about my educational background. The phrase "ivory tower" refers to a place or attitude where intellectuals are disconnected from reality. What I'm saying is that the world's in a sad, sad state where being an "intellectual" is a negative thing. That you associate "leaned" with "condensation" is what I find insulting.

No one's trying to tell you how to use the English language, believe me. All we're saying is that, out of respect for your fellow man, don't use terms, words, or phrases that are offensive. It's not about controlling language it's about not being a hateful bigot. I'm truly sorry if you feel your freedom to call a black person a "n***er" or something you find lame "gay" is worth keeping over not disrespecting your fellow man.

Wow talk about putting words in ones mouth. I never said I wanted the right to call a Black Man the "N Word" or use a slur against any other minority. Thanks for labelling me as a bigot just because I happen to think calling a uniform gay is not worthy of punishment.

My point is that using the term gay in a derogatory manner is no different from using the n word. In both cases the intent is to insult a minority group.

Oh yes, you got me there

The part you seem hung up about is that the target of the attack, the uniforms, are inanimate objects. What you fail to see is that the attack itself is the problem, the target is inconsequential. They felt the colour purple was lame, stupid. So they called them "gay." While the term itself is primarily just a descriptive word for homosexuals, when used by someone to describe something they find stupid it becomes a derogatory phrase. The students didn't like the uniforms, so they called them "gay." When that happened gay went from being a simple descriptive to being a derogatory slur. Much the like the example I used previously, Jew. It's just the name for a group of people on its own, but when used in the sentence "I Jewed that guy" it becomes a slur.

I'm not trying to tell you how the English language should work, by the way, simply explaining how it worked. Context matters. The kids in question didn't think "oh those uniforms are purple, and the homosexual community identifies with purple, therefore we'll simply honour this fact and call the uniforms gay!"

They thought "that uniform is purple, purple is lame, it's so gay!"

See? Context.

So uniforms have sexual preferences? News to me

Oh my G-d....

Ok. The uniforms themselves, the targets of the insult, aren't what matters here. Of course inanimate objects don't have sexual preferences. That needed to be clarified? Come on now. The problem is that they used the name of a group of people in a derogatory manner. That's the problem. It would be like if they called the uniforms "caucasian" because they thought the uniforms looked lame. Of course the uniforms themselves aren't white people, but the problem is that in this hypothetical scenario the name of a group of people would have been used in an insulting manner.

Now of course that example seems silly, because white people have a long history of cultural agency and dominance, especially in Europe and North America, but I'm using it here in a sort of "what if?" sense to try and get you to understand why using the term "gay" like it was used is not ok.

As I've said a million times, what they did was stupid but calling for punishment is excessive and ridiculous.

You've harped on this quite a bit. You've said you're insulted that I was want these kids punished, you called it extreme, and you accused me of being an ideological hypocrite because of it. So I'm wondering what exactly you think I mean when I say "punishment." Do you think I want them banned from all the best universities? Do you think I want them forever shamed for their actions? Obviously, given your reaction to the idea of punishing these kids, you think what I want is quite severe.

Well I'm sorry to disappoint. When I say these kids need to be disciplined I don't mean expulsion, or suspension, or anything like that. Just a good old fashion chewing out by an authority figure. No "black marks" on their record, no hypothetical scarlet A, or anything like that. They just need to be made aware that this kind of language is not ok. Again, if the school doesn't address it they're encouraging it. So someone, a principal, teacher, coach, whatever, needs to sit them down and tell them it was moronic to do, and that it's not going to be tolerated again. That's all. Maybe it's already been done, and if so good for the school.

[Magnum]

Talk about a huge thread explosion

You know if this wasn't televised, no one would give a damn. Just saying ...

I'm gay but I don't take personal offense to it. I'm sure we've all grown up in a world with racist, sexist and homophobic remarks around us. Whether or not you choose to decipher words and statements as meaningful lifelong obstructions is up to you.

[The_Admiral]

[lancealot]

Anyone think a couple Ravens or Vikings should show up at that school and ask those kids how they feel about men who wear purple?

I propose Ray Lewis & Jared Allen

Purple is awesome.

Well hel I'll go over there and kick there asses

I have been so close to kicking so many people's asses for calling purple gay and saying crap like 'purple is the international gay colour' it pisses the hell out of me for two reasons

1. Purple can look badass and does On a football uniform

2. The colour you wear has nothing to do with sexual orientation

[Morgan33]

After doing some reflecting I've realized that I've been arguing for the sake of arguing. A stern talking to about not using the word in a derogatory manner is not unreasonable by any means but I still maintain that anything more would be extreme. I guess the reason why I toke issue with the whole "not being able to use gay as synonym for lame or stupid" is because I catch myself doing this a lot. I'm not intentionally trying to insult gay people by any means. It's just that when I went to High School, this practice was very commonplace and it's a hard habit to shake. I have come to accept that it is in fact insulting to this particular minority and will be making an effort to stop it. What these kids did was dumb and offensive and from now on I will be taking exception to people who do the same.

This will be my last post on the manner as I come to this site to discuss uniforms and post concepts, not argue about politically sensitive issues like this one. I apologize to Ice Cap directly and any one else I pissed off. Maybe this thread can end on a positive note.

-Morgo

[Buster]

The thread title drew me in but it was a letdown. I said, really, that's all?

Yeah it was stupid and insensitive, but it's also a waste of our time to give them this kind of attention. Really, this is worth national, no worldwide attention? They likely did it BECAUSE they knew they'd get their 15 minutes of internet fame. Get ready for copycats everywhere now.

It's just kids being idiots. No need to throw around elitist words like "homophobic" and have thousands of online discussions about it.

They were being stupid, they should be reprimanded, there we go. It's not a national crisis or even headline worthy.

I echo the earlier post, I'm glad we didn't have the internet when I was growing up. Nothing is personal and everything is overblown.

[-kj]

Morgo: You know, it takes cajones to step back and change your stance during a debate like this. We definitely don't see it around here very often. Color me impressed.

...elitist words like "homophobic"...

Um... what?

[CSSdesigns]

Can't wait to see these beauties on the court again.

Remove the pinstripes, and that would be a beautiful fauxback.

[Beantown77]

Can't wait to see these beauties on the court again.

Remove the pinstripes, and that would be a beautiful throwback.

Remove the pinstripes and it wouldn't be a throwback!

[guest23]

The thread title drew me in but it was a letdown. I said, really, that's all?

Yeah it was stupid and insensitive, but it's also a waste of our time to give them this kind of attention. Really, this is worth national, no worldwide attention? They likely did it BECAUSE they knew they'd get their 15 minutes of internet fame. Get ready for copycats everywhere now.

It's just kids being idiots. No need to throw around elitist words like "homophobic" and have thousands of online discussions about it.

They were being stupid, they should be reprimanded, there we go. It's not a national crisis or even headline worthy.

I echo the earlier post, I'm glad we didn't have the internet when I was growing up. Nothing is personal and everything is overblown.

I think a simple reprimand will suffice. While they behaved like idiots, they are still highschoolers which means they really won't understand until they either become responsible adults or suffer some sort of symbolic consequence. That being said suspend them from attending the next 1-2 games or some other extracurricular and be done with it.

[IceCap]

Morgo, first and foremost it's all good.

I'll echo Mokba, it's rare that something like this leads to a meaningful change in a person's opinion, abd it's even rarer that the person admits it. You've got my respect. Take care.

[Chicageaux]

I really don't think I need to state my case on the color purple in sports.

I do think that this is a school issue and doesn't really deserve to be blown up the way it has. As many have stated, kids do stupid things, are punished, and then hopefully learn from it. It's the school's duty to punish the kids because they allowed the banner in and then it was displayed in their stands. When I was in high school, we couldn't chant "push-it" or anything that could be taken the wrong way or deemed offensive. If you did, you were kicked out and depending on the severity, you were punished accordingly. This was 5 years ago, I'm sure not much has changed. What I do know that there has to be a better understanding of the word and that it shouldn't be used as a synonym for the word "stupid" or "dumb." That should be taught in school and at home.

When I was younger, I can admit that I've said, "That's gay," without actually meaning it as a slur. Nowadays, I would never use it like that because I've grown up and I've learned. I took my ten year old brother out over the summer to a movie and he made the comment that something was "gay." I asked where he heard that from and he replied that his friends say it. I told him that it wasn't cool to say and his friends weren't for using it. He may have listened, but he most likely didn't because he's a kid, but now he knows not to say it around me and I know one day he'll know that it's not appropriate to use.

Lastly:

freedom to be dumbass pricks.

childish antics. but what can we expect from these homophobic southern morons. they get taught creationism in high school---how we can we expect reason or tolerance from such people?

I'm just exercising my right to name call like the redneck is justifying. Why does it matter if my name calling is directed to an individual as opposed to a group. It's all free speech right? This means I have the the right to voice my opinion that this redneck who doesn't see the big deal and implicitly supports this idiocy of these kids. Southerners never see the big deal when they are are simply "speaking their beliefs" (aka spreading hate) but are the 1st ones to cry foul and play the victim card when they perceive are being persecuted.

You're also right I really need to grow some balls and get a real internet tough guy handle like "9erssteeve" cause you're keepin it so real on the iternets.

These two posts really bugged me. I understand that it takes a small percentage of idiots to ruin it for the majority but are you really labeling all "southerners" as rednecks simply because they believe in God or are taught creationism? I was born in the south, lived 10 years of my life in the south, believe in creationism, but yet somehow I'm accepting of other people's views and ideas. I really hope both those posts were to prove a point and not actually generalizing that ALL southerners are bigots..

[Chawls]

I'm a Southerner, not a bigot, and I was never taught Creationism in school. In Catechism yes, but in public school, no. So don't brand us all as ass-backwards hicks.

[crashcarson15]

If we never punish students for using slurs such as "gay" all over the place, when will it stop? We have to come back as a society and realize the fact that being gay isn't anything that's bad, anything that's wrong, anything that makes you less of a man or less of a woman.

When we say things are so "gay," we make it seem like it's undesirable to be gay, that those who are gay are inherently dumb, weird, lame, or unmasculine, which quite frankly is nowhere near being the truth. Saying that a test was "so gay" insults the LGBT(Q) community; while what you meant was that test was "so dumb," you've now used "gay" as a synonym for "dumb." When I was younger (read: 8th grade), I would use "gay" and "queer" a lot; I didn't understand how hurtful they were because I had known nobody from the LGBT(Q) community - it was just kind of how we did things. But you have to break that cycle, the cycle of it just being commonplace to use "gay" as a substitute for "dumb, lame, etc." and not let it go on. I'm not saying you need to hand out detentions for saying the word "gay" by any stretch of the imagination, but it's something that we need to stop turning our heads about. You wouldn't be able to say "that teacher's such a n***er for giving us that test," so why is it okay to say "that teacher's so gay for giving us that test"? They both infer the same general concept: tearing another group down and using a descriptive name for them in a derogatory sense. Why is one absolutely not to be used in any context and the other okay because they're "just high schoolers."

By the time you're in high school, presumably your senior year if you're on your school's list of spirit leaders, we all understand what we're doing. We just need someone to come in and "lay down the law" per se. It's about time unprovoked attacks on groups of people stop.

[CSSdesigns]

Can't wait to see these beauties on the court again.

Remove the pinstripes, and that would be a beautiful fauxback.

Remove the pinstripes and it wouldn't be a throwback!

[AndrewPF]

6 pages in and nobody mentions the hot reporter?

Come on, guys. This is CCSLC.

[guest23]

I really don't think I need to state my case on the color purple in sports.

I do think that this is a school issue and doesn't really deserve to be blown up the way it has. As many have stated, kids do stupid things, are punished, and then hopefully learn from it. It's the school's duty to punish the kids because they allowed the banner in and then it was displayed in their stands. When I was in high school, we couldn't chant "push-it" or anything that could be taken the wrong way or deemed offensive. If you did, you were kicked out and depending on the severity, you were punished accordingly. This was 5 years ago, I'm sure not much has changed. What I do know that there has to be a better understanding of the word and that it shouldn't be used as a synonym for the word "stupid" or "dumb." That should be taught in school and at home.

When I was younger, I can admit that I've said, "That's gay," without actually meaning it as a slur. Nowadays, I would never use it like that because I've grown up and I've learned. I took my ten year old brother out over the summer to a movie and he made the comment that something was "gay." I asked where he heard that from and he replied that his friends say it. I told him that it wasn't cool to say and his friends weren't for using it. He may have listened, but he most likely didn't because he's a kid, but now he knows not to say it around me and I know one day he'll know that it's not appropriate to use.

Lastly:

freedom to be dumbass pricks.

childish antics. but what can we expect from these homophobic southern morons. they get taught creationism in high school---how we can we expect reason or tolerance from such people?

I'm just exercising my right to name call like the redneck is justifying. Why does it matter if my name calling is directed to an individual as opposed to a group. It's all free speech right? This means I have the the right to voice my opinion that this redneck who doesn't see the big deal and implicitly supports this idiocy of these kids. Southerners never see the big deal when they are are simply "speaking their beliefs" (aka spreading hate) but are the 1st ones to cry foul and play the victim card when they perceive are being persecuted.

You're also right I really need to grow some balls and get a real internet tough guy handle like "9erssteeve" cause you're keepin it so real on the iternets.

These two posts really bugged me. I understand that it takes a small percentage of idiots to ruin it for the majority but are you really labeling all "southerners" as rednecks simply because they believe in God or are taught creationism? I was born in the south, lived 10 years of my life in the south, believe in creationism, but yet somehow I'm accepting of other people's views and ideas. I really hope both those posts were to prove a point and not actually generalizing that ALL southerners are bigots..

you must be in the 0.0001% of tolerant people in the south considering the southern culture and the vocal majority has embraced bigotry and marginalizing those that are different for centuries...the funny thing is that when it comes time for southern culture to get its fair share of criticism I've never seen a bigger bunch of thin skinned sissies willing to play the victim card and cry persecution. y'all can dish it out and turn a blind eye when hatred and division rears its ugly head, but you sure as hell can't take it when you're on the receiving end.

I know there are exceptions but hey I'm entitled to my opinion.

[OnWis97]

you must be in the 0.0001% of tolerant people in the south considering the southern culture and the vocal majority has embraced bigotry and marginalizing those that are different for centuries...the funny thing is that when it comes time for southern culture to get its fair share of criticism I've never seen a bigger bunch of thin skinned sissies willing to play the victim card and cry persecution. y'all can dish it out and turn a blind eye when hatred and division rears its ugly head, but you sure as hell can't take it when you're on the receiving end.

I know there are exceptions but hey I'm entitled to my opinion.

I'll ignore the fact that this post is primarily dedicated to stereotyping by region and painting with a broad brush to focus on the bold...

This is one of my gear-grinders about "PC". "Political Correctness" has been, to an extent, labeled as a "liberal problem" by those offended that they can't say "he jewed me", use the n-word or even badmouth gays. But for some reason, once they are offended, suddenly the world is about to end. If you want people to talk how they want, then you cannot cry foul when they do so about your group.

One of my favorite pasttimes when someone calls me "PC" (after calling them out for using some slur) is to work in a phrase like "Jesus Freaks" into the conversation later; sometimes they'll get indignant at my "offensive language" at which time I love to point out that they are calling for political correctness. It's nice when they get it, but they usually think "well this is different" (which it is; the differecne is YOU are on the other side).]

So despite guest's over-generalization of the south, his sub-point that most people that whine about political correctness are hypocrites is dead on.

To add to this topic: I am not sure where all the "level headed people" get the idea that the "PC liberals" are calling for draconian punishments. Saying "we should not let them do this" or "we should not let them get away with this" does not equal "expel them".

I think one detention should probably do it; or maybe a stern talking to/warning as long as it focused on what the word really means and provided them with a sense of the power of their message. I used "gay" as a pejorative from probably age 8 to age 20. I never thought much about it. I don't think I meant anything either and I don't dispute that some people don't. But it adds to the culture that we have. Those who do use it should be, more than punished, educated. Words are powerful.