Baseball in Montréal

[twi]

Wait, the Expos weren't allowed Sept callups? What was the reason behind that? How can you limit just one team in the league like that?

[McCall]

Wait, the Expos weren't allowed Sept callups? What was the reason behind that? How can you limit just one team in the league like that?

The league owned the team.

[Eye]

Wait, the Expos weren't allowed Sept callups? What was the reason behind that? How can you limit just one team in the league like that?

The league wanted them to fail.

In 2004, Expos/Blue Jays was played in Puerto Rico.

[TheOldRoman]

SMOKED MEAT UPDATE: Today I went to the French deli recommended by Admiral and got my first smoked meat sandwich. I figured it would be giant like the sandwiches you get in many Jewish delis, but it was a normal sized sandwich. The meat was very tasty, but I have to think it lost something over the 20 minute walk back to my office, because it was a tiny bit dry. Still, it was glorious. It was like my first time having sex, only the sandwich lasted longer. I'm looking forward to making my way up to Montreal, hopefully next year.

Oh, and bring back the Expos.

[BigBubba]

Re: French-Canadian delicacies

If you're visiting Montréal, you've gotta watch out for the poutine. Don't assume that it's all "authentic". The one time I went there, I had poutine twice. Once was at an "actual" poutine place, and it was pretty good. The other time it was at some sketchy little stand and it was revolting. Imagine throwing McDonalds fries in with Kraft Singles and gravy-flavoured lard, and you get an idea of what I'm talking about.

-BigBubba

[BigBubba]

I posted this in the MLB Season thread, but the Blue Jays are gonna play two Spring Training games next year at The O. It's obviously just another part of their whole "Canada's Team" promotion, but you'd have to imagine with what what they've said over the past few years, if these are successful, they'll be pondering the idea of putting a minor league-team there.

[Gothamite]

1. Attendance at a major league exhibition tells us exactly nothing about how a market would support a franchise at any level.

2. Would Montreal be interested in a Toronto farm team? I thought that the sports animosity might be prohibitive.

[sportstar1212]

I posted this in the MLB Season thread, but the Blue Jays are gonna play two Spring Training games next year at The O. It's obviously just another part of their whole "Canada's Team" promotion, but you'd have to imagine with what what they've said over the past few years, if these are successful, they'll be pondering the idea of putting a minor league-team there.

That's pretty cool. I might head up for the game depending on my schedule. Last time I went to The O I was 6 and I don't remember it all too much, so I would like to go back.

[Cosmic]

1. Attendance at a major league exhibition tells us exactly nothing about how a market would support a franchise at any level.

2. Would Montreal be interested in a Toronto farm team? I thought that the sports animosity might be prohibitive.

I think Buffalo and Toronto are a good fit. Maybe Montreal could affiliate with one of the BosWash teams? It's about the same distance for them.

[IceCap]

2. Would Montreal be interested in a Toronto farm team?

No. Not at all.

[bosrs1]

Why wouldn't Montreal be interested in a minor league team? It's not like affiliation matters all that much when compared to simply having a team back. I mean Montreal does have a long history with MiLB teams from the pre-Expos days.

[BigBubba]

1. Attendance at a major league exhibition tells us exactly nothing about how a market would support a franchise at any level.

2. Would Montreal be interested in a Toronto farm team? I thought that the sports animosity might be prohibitive.

A. I wasn't referring to the number of bums in the stands.

B. I think your average Montréal baseball fan wouldn't really give a hoot about what team theirs was affiliated with and would just be happy to have a team back. And even if affiliation did matter to fans, Toronto certainly wouldn't turn them off. The Jays and 'Spos played in different leagues and never had any semblance of a rivalry. They only played a few series against each other, with one being in San Juan as the Expos were on their death bed, and another on Canada Day with an almost "brotherly" attitude. The Toronto/Montréal (or Ontario/Québec) animosity really exists in hockey because 1. The Leafs and Habs have been competing in the same league for almost 100 years and have faced 800 times including six Cup finals; 2. It was founded on a cultural divide - the English-speaking and heavily Protestant west vs. the French-speaking, heavily Catholic east. Since the Expos' fanbase was primarily English-speaking, there wouldn't be an "us vs. them" attitude.

[IceCap]

Why wouldn't Montreal be interested in a minor league team? It's not like affiliation matters all that much when compared to simply having a team back. I mean Montreal does have a long history with MiLB teams from the pre-Expos days.

I'm not saying they'd be uninterested in a minor league team. I'm saying they'd be uninterested in one affiliated with the Blue Jays. The Montreal/Toronto rivalry runs deep.

It was founded on a cultural divide - the English-speaking and heavily Protestant west vs. the French-speaking, heavily Catholic east. Since the Expos' fanbase was primarily English-speaking, there wouldn't be an "us vs. them" attitude.

And most of those English-speaking Montrealers moved to Ontario after Bill 101. Any team in Montreal, major or minor league, would have to win the hearts and minds of the city's French speaking population. A minor league team affiliated with a major league team in Toronto isn't going to do that.

Further it's not like English Montrealers don't buy into the Toronto/Montreal rivalry. My dad grew up in Montreal and is an Anglophone. You can't get him to say a single good thing about the Leafs or Toronto smoked meat

[BigBubba]

It was founded on a cultural divide - the English-speaking and heavily Protestant west vs. the French-speaking, heavily Catholic east. Since the Expos' fanbase was primarily English-speaking, there wouldn't be an "us vs. them" attitude.

And most of those English-speaking Montrealers moved to Ontario after Bill 101. Any team in Montreal, major or minor league, would have to win the hearts and minds of the city's French speaking population. A minor league team affiliated with a major league team in Toronto isn't going to do that.

Very true, but I think that while the Bill 101 problem would be a large impediment to bringing MLB back, I still think they could support a minor-league team. Even for AAA, the average draw in 2012 was 6 300. Getting 7 000 fans a night isn't a whole lot to ask - you wouldn't have to dig very deep into the French population or even into the Expos faithful to pull away with what would be considered an "above-average" crowd. Plus, the Jays and Expos alumni have quietly been growing the game in Québec through winter tours, youth baseball camps, etc., so the drilling is already underway in a sense. That's also big in the sense that the Blue Jays are making it very clear that they're Montréal's friends. They paid tribute to Gary Carter on the JumboTron after he died. On Canada Baseball Day, they had a 5-minute-long video before the game reflecting on the Expos. They've stopped by on their Winter Tour before. They help with grassroots development in the area. Now they're letting Montréalers see Major League action again, if only for two exhibition games. Heck, they've acknowledged the Expos in the past few years more than the Nats ever have. That, coupled with the general indifference (for lack of a better word) between the two teams during their playing days, makes it seem pretty realistic that your average John (Jean?) and his buds will come on out for $10 tickets and take in their first pro baseball game in a decade.

[Gothamite]

1. Attendance at a major league exhibition tells us exactly nothing about how a market would support a franchise at any level.

A. I wasn't referring to the number of bums in the stands.

Okay, then to what were you referring when you said:

if these are successful, they'll be pondering the idea of putting a minor league-team there.

?

[bosrs1]

Why wouldn't Montreal be interested in a minor league team? It's not like affiliation matters all that much when compared to simply having a team back. I mean Montreal does have a long history with MiLB teams from the pre-Expos days.

I'm not saying they'd be uninterested in a minor league team. I'm saying they'd be uninterested in one affiliated with the Blue Jays. The Montreal/Toronto rivalry runs deep.

It was founded on a cultural divide - the English-speaking and heavily Protestant west vs. the French-speaking, heavily Catholic east. Since the Expos' fanbase was primarily English-speaking, there wouldn't be an "us vs. them" attitude.

And most of those English-speaking Montrealers moved to Ontario after Bill 101. Any team in Montreal, major or minor league, would have to win the hearts and minds of the city's French speaking population. A minor league team affiliated with a major league team in Toronto isn't going to do that.

Further it's not like English Montrealers don't buy into the Toronto/Montreal rivalry. My dad grew up in Montreal and is an Anglophone. You can't get him to say a single good thing about the Leafs or Toronto smoked meat

As someone menitoned earlier, there was never really a rivalry between the Jays and Expos. I get that there's still the cultural divide and that in Hockey the rivalry runs deep. But honestly I don't see where there'd be too much of an issue for a minor league affliation. It's not like people going to minor league games really focus on who the major league affiliate of their local minor league team is in no small part because they change so rapidly (the lone exception would obviously be when the minor league team is named after the parent (eg: San Jose Giants, Tucson Padres, etc...). I mean take the only other MiLB team currently playing in Canada, the Vancouver Canadians. They were affiliated with the Oakland A's for a decade, and then jumped to the Jays a few years ago. It had no appreciable difference on their attendance one way or the other.

[IceCap]

The Montreal/Toronto rivalry runs deeper then the hockey rivalry between the Habs and Leafs. There's also the English Canada/French Canada dynamic that's bigger then just a "cultural divide." It's one that almost tore the country apart on two separate occasions via referendum, a terrorist scare in the 60s, and a full on rebellion in the 19th century. And those feelings of Quebecois nationalism are strongest in Montreal because of Montreal's status as the centre of English Canadian culture in Quebec. To French Canadian nationalists Montreal is the front line against the English Canadians and immigrants they see as threats to their culture. Montreal's where they have to fight the English signage and deal with the neighbourhoods with strong Anglophone traditions. Even with the exodus of much of the city's Anglophones from Montreal to Ontario feelings of French Canadian culture being "under siege" in Montreal are still very strong.

My point is that a French Canadian fanbase in Montreal isn't going to accept a team that's the farm team of a Major League team in Toronto, the traditional epicentre of English Canadian culture.

Best case scenario? The fanbase is just happy to have some form of pro baseball back and they support them for a few years as they try to ignore that the Blue Jays are the parent club of their team. After a few years of decent to strong attendance, however, fans will start making noise about how they shouldn't have to be Toronto's little brother anymore.

[bosrs1]

The Montreal/Toronto rivalry runs deeper then the hockey rivalry between the Habs and Leafs. There's also the English Canada/French Canada dynamic that's bigger then just a "cultural divide." It's one that almost tore the country apart on two separate occasions via referendum, a terrorist scare in the 60s, and a full on rebellion in the 19th century. And those feelings of Quebecois nationalism are strongest in Montreal because of Montreal's status as the centre of English Canadian culture in Quebec. To French Canadian nationalists Montreal is the front line against the English Canadians and immigrants they see as threats to their culture. Montreal's where they have to fight the English signage and deal with the neighbourhoods with strong Anglophone traditions. Even with the exodus of much of the city's Anglophones from Montreal to Ontario feelings of French Canadian culture being "under siege" in Montreal are still very strong.

My point is that a French Canadian fanbase in Montreal isn't going to accept a team that's the farm team of a Major League team in Toronto, the traditional epicentre of English Canadian culture.

Best case scenario? The fanbase is just happy to have some form of pro baseball back and they support them for a few years as they try to ignore that the Blue Jays are the parent club of their team. After a few years of decent to strong attendance, however, fans will start making noise about how they shouldn't have to be Toronto's little brother anymore.

You assume of course that they'd do much advertising of the fact they were Toronto's farm team. Many minor league teams barely acknowledge who they're affliated with.

[IceCap]

Even if they didn't play it up (I doubt we'd get the Montreal Blue Jays) it would still be common knowledge. And French Montreal won't tolerate being a junior partner to English Toronto long term.

[bosrs1]

Somehow I doubt it would matter if the alternative was to continue to have no team to watch. The success or failure of a minor league Montreal team will rest on its own management and how well they market the team, not who it is affiliated with.