NFL Merry-Go-Round: Relocation Roundelay

[Gothamite]

I don't know that the NFL would ever admit regrets even if they had any, but the decision to expand to Jacksonville has been cited as one of the things keeping former Commissioner Tagliabue out of the Hall of Fame.

[BBTV]

We'll going to Jacksonville kept Baltimore and St. Louis open for relocation, so it worked in that those were the LA of the time, but still, there had to be better options.

Not sure that Memphis would've been better, other than just by default.

[IceCap]

If I remember correctly Jacksonville was the worst-case scenario that came to pass. The league wanted St. Louis and Baltimore, but St. Louis fell through so it became Carolina and Baltimore. Memphis was considered the next fall back, and Jacksonville only got a team once it and Baltimore fell through. I may be completely off base, but I do remember reading something that essentially spelt out that if St. Louis, Baltimore, or Memphis had been able to keep their bids together Jacksonville wouldn't have gotten a team.

[Gothamite]

We'll going to Jacksonville kept Baltimore and St. Louis open for relocation, so it worked in that those were the LA of the time, but still, there had to be better options.

I honestly don't remember - were those considered sufficiently attractive relocation candidates for teams to use them to leverage new stadiums? St. Louis got a team because Georgia Frontier was from there and they were desperate enough to give her a suckers' deal. Baltimore, I really don't know.

[dfwabel]

If I remember correctly Jacksonville was the worst-case scenario that came to pass. The league wanted St. Louis and Baltimore, but St. Louis fell through so it became Carolina and Baltimore. Memphis was considered the next fall back, and Jacksonville only got a team once it and Baltimore fell through. I may be completely off base, but I do remember reading something that essentially spelt out that if St. Louis, Baltimore, or Memphis had been able to keep their bids together Jacksonville wouldn't have gotten a team.

At the time, Jacksonville guaranteed the most money for every visiting team and the redone Gator Bowl had more seats between the endzones than other bids via selling 10,000 club seats with 5 year commitments in a 10 days.

[IceCap]

The league also chased the housing bubble, as did the NHL and MLB. It was a bad idea all around.

[bosrs1]

The league also chased the housing bubble, as did the NHL and MLB. It was a bad idea all around.

How did MLB chase the housing bubble?

[IceCap]

Tampa Bay, Florida/Miami.

[bosrs1]

Tampa Bay, Florida/Miami.

Miami was due for a team long before the "housing bubble" started growing out of control. Remember they decided to put the Marlins there back in '91 if I'm not mistaken.

As for Tampa that one you could make an argument about, but even then there'd been a stadium there in a city trying to lure teams for over a decade before they finally gave in after both the Giants and White Sox independently explored moving there (and very nearly doing so in the former case again in the very early 90's).

[Brian in Boston]

It certainly wouldn't change the capacity of EverBank Field, the transient/transplanted nature of Greater Jacksonville's population vis-à-vis the military presence in the region, the socio-economic characteristics of the market, etc. However, one has to wonder just how much - if at all - the Jaguars' fortunes in Jacksonville would have been different if the team had advanced to Super Bowl XXXI in just its second season of play? Or, if it had held on to its 14-10 half-time lead in the AFC Championship Game against the Tennessee Titans two seasons later and gotten to Super Bowl XXXIII? Might a Super Bowl appearance have cemented the team's hold on the hearts and minds of its marketplace?

[The_Admiral]

It's hard to say. I mean, the Buccaneers had a more solid base than the Jaguars did, did win a Super Bowl, and have since experienced even more fan erosion than the Jaguars have. Christ himself wasn't going to stop the Packers from winning the Super Bowl that year, so I don't know what kind of long-term mileage they would have gotten out of that. What did the '85 Pats do for football in Boston? Not enough when you consider that whole thing was on death's door until Parcells came in.

[STL FANATIC]

I know I come at this as biased because my team is in this situation, but much like Tampa Bay, I really don't think a "one and done" (more accurately a few years and done) really helps put a foothold in the market if the immediate after math is a complete collapse.

Now, maybe Jacksonville would have been able to keep it going. That would have helped. But I think it takes sustained competitiveness in a market to really establish roots.

The Bucs have never done it. The Rams have never done it. Both came close, but followed it up with sustained awfulness. And we're seeing that the Jags never really even got close.

There may be some markets that didn't or don't need that as much, but I don't think you can find 30 markets like that.

On a related note, you watch a hyped Rams team start the season a horrific 1-3 and then wind up with their hands full at home versus an insanely bad Jacksonville team, and people question why fans don't buy up all the seats or choose not to attend the game in person regardless of whether they have a ticket. Seems crazy to me.

Just don't see how you can criticize a fan base (and this goes for Jacksonville and Tampa too) until the organization in town gets their stuff together.

[DaytonBlue]

Well I believe if Memphis had gotten a team they'd be in the same boat as St. Louis is now, as I believe Memphis was basically offering the Liberty Bowl as it is now and surely the Hound Dogs would be howling for a new stadium by now.

Also, I wonder where the Grizzlies would have gone because Memphis does not have enough population/income to support two pro teams.

[smith03]

if Memphis got a team would the oilers had moved to Nashvillle?

[LAWeaver]

Also, I wonder where the Grizzlies would have gone because Memphis does not have enough population/income to support two pro teams.

Maybe... New Orleans or OKC?

[tigerslionspistonshabs]

if Memphis got a team would the oilers had moved to Nashvillle?

Nope. And if I remember, they played in Memphis for a season.

I think the Oilers would've gone to L.A. or maybe even some sort of deal with Cleveland?

Why did they keep the Oilers name/identity after moving? Was there a plan to keep it and then changed it; or was there a plan to change it all along?

Also, I wonder where the Grizzlies would have gone because Memphis does not have enough population/income to support two pro teams.

Maybe... New Orleans or OKC?

New Orleans for sure. They were a very close 2nd in landing the Grizzlies. OKC wasn't even a thought back then.

[OnWis97]

I know I come at this as biased because my team is in this situation, but much like Tampa Bay, I really don't think a "one and done" (more accurately a few years and done) really helps put a foothold in the market if the immediate after math is a complete collapse.

Now, maybe Jacksonville would have been able to keep it going. That would have helped. But I think it takes sustained competitiveness in a market to really establish roots.

The Bucs have never done it. The Rams have never done it. Both came close, but followed it up with sustained awfulness. And we're seeing that the Jags never really even got close.

There may be some markets that didn't or don't need that as much, but I don't think you can find 30 markets like that.

On a related note, you watch a hyped Rams team start the season a horrific 1-3 and then wind up with their hands full at home versus an insanely bad Jacksonville team, and people question why fans don't buy up all the seats or choose not to attend the game in person regardless of whether they have a ticket. Seems crazy to me.

Just don't see how you can criticize a fan base (and this goes for Jacksonville and Tampa too) until the organization in town gets their stuff together.

Interesting. Those teams both won fairly recent Super Bowls and one-time participant in this LA dance, the Vikings, never have. But one could argue the Vikes have done a better job at sustaining competitiveness than those teams. Viking fans usually have a reason to watch in December, but the constant disappointments (along with the whole public funding issue, of course) had a lot of people acting comfortable with letting the Vikes go. I always thought that a Super Bowl win would go further toward ensconcing a team into the community but maybe it's the year-to-year reason to watch deep into the season.

(Fun fact: Since the merger, the Vikes have more playoff appearances than anyone except for Dallas...they just cannot finish)

In any case, I tend to agree that a few more playoff appearances would have gone further to helping the Jags than just one super bowl win/appearance.

Of course there are tons of other factors including economics, etc.

All that said, I remain surprised it is not going well in Jacksonville. It's the biggest city in Florida and it has almost no other local sports to compete with.

[The_Admiral]

All that said, I remain surprised it is not going well in Jacksonville. It's the biggest city in Florida and it has almost no other local sports to compete with.

"Biggest city in Florida" doesn't mean anything. It just means they annexed pretty much the whole county. The metro population is between that of Greensboro and Hartford, forming what I guess is a Whalers sandwich.

[rams80]

All that said, I remain surprised it is not going well in Jacksonville. It's the biggest city in Florida and it has almost no other local sports to compete with.

Gainesville, Florida is a little more than an hour away from downtown Jacksonville.

Go Gatah.

[STL FANATIC]

I know I come at this as biased because my team is in this situation, but much like Tampa Bay, I really don't think a "one and done" (more accurately a few years and done) really helps put a foothold in the market if the immediate after math is a complete collapse.

Now, maybe Jacksonville would have been able to keep it going. That would have helped. But I think it takes sustained competitiveness in a market to really establish roots.

The Bucs have never done it. The Rams have never done it. Both came close, but followed it up with sustained awfulness. And we're seeing that the Jags never really even got close.

There may be some markets that didn't or don't need that as much, but I don't think you can find 30 markets like that.

On a related note, you watch a hyped Rams team start the season a horrific 1-3 and then wind up with their hands full at home versus an insanely bad Jacksonville team, and people question why fans don't buy up all the seats or choose not to attend the game in person regardless of whether they have a ticket. Seems crazy to me.

Just don't see how you can criticize a fan base (and this goes for Jacksonville and Tampa too) until the organization in town gets their stuff together.

Interesting. Those teams both won fairly recent Super Bowls and one-time participant in this LA dance, the Vikings, never have. But one could argue the Vikes have done a better job at sustaining competitiveness than those teams. Viking fans usually have a reason to watch in December, but the constant disappointments (along with the whole public funding issue, of course) had a lot of people acting comfortable with letting the Vikes go. I always thought that a Super Bowl win would go further toward ensconcing a team into the community but maybe it's the year-to-year reason to watch deep into the season.

It's not scientific, but I think it's the sustained competitiveness that really builds the bond. I don't think there's any question winning a championship is the number one way to grab attention, though. You get all the casual fans and a lot of fans who maybe don't care at all to suddenly be fans.

But if you can't keep them hooked for more for most of the next decade with the idea that they might get to be on top of the world again, you're flirting with losing them. And if you instead treat them to a product that gives them the idea they might have the first overall pick for most of the next decade, then you're really going to lose a lot of them.

That's what's happened with the Bucs and the Rams I think. It's what happened with the Jags too, only it's worse, because they never even had the initial hook of winning.

Minnesota deserves credit for building the fan base without the advantage of a championship hook. But, as you alluded to, they have given their fans reason to believe they could win a championship for a lot of years, and I think that's one reason fans remained interested.

And I think if you can keep fans interested for about a decade, then they're going to have that bond where even when the team is bad, they're going to care. At that point, they're already attached.