Stadium/Arena Saga Omnibus

[MJWalker45]

4 minutes ago, kimball said:

 

You talk like it's an either/or on fandom between the A's and Aviators. They can coexist and I think promotes both clubs well, especially watching players go from the minors to majors.  But, there will always be a market for minor league baseball advertising dollars and companies that are priced out with the big leagues.

There's a reason the Baltimore Orioles minor league team moved out of Baltimore when St. Louis moved in. It was because playing that close to a MLB team does not bring you more money, it's because people wanting MLB baseball over the minors will choose to spend most of their money at the big league park. Now it's possible that the A's try to help out there AAA club, but that usually means cutting into their own profits.  

[LMU]

Just now, MJWalker45 said:

There's a reason the Baltimore Orioles minor league team moved out of Baltimore when St. Louis moved in. It was because playing that close to a MLB team does not bring you more money, it's because people wanting MLB baseball over the minors will choose to spend most of their money at the big league park. Now it's possible that the A's try to help out there AAA club, but that usually means cutting into their own profits.  

Hockey has shown that there's a new model where minor league profits are completely ignored in favor of player development needs.   So, there's completely a path forward for the big club to play off the Strip and the minor league still hanging around in Summerlin.

[gosioux76]

12 minutes ago, MJWalker45 said:

There's a reason the Baltimore Orioles minor league team moved out of Baltimore when St. Louis moved in. It was because playing that close to a MLB team does not bring you more money, it's because people wanting MLB baseball over the minors will choose to spend most of their money at the big league park. Now it's possible that the A's try to help out there AAA club, but that usually means cutting into their own profits.  

 

I'm confused by this discussion. It's not like it's unusual for a MLB team to share the same market with their AAA affiliate. This is happening right now in the Twin Cities with the St. Paul Saints and has been the case since at least 1995 with the Mariners and the Tacoma Rainiers. Sugar Land, home to the AAA Skeeters, is in the Houston MSA, which is similar to Atlanta and Gwinnett. 

 

What exactly is the issue? 

[kolob]

14 minutes ago, MJWalker45 said:

There's a reason the Baltimore Orioles minor league team moved out of Baltimore when St. Louis moved in. It was because playing that close to a MLB team does not bring you more money, it's because people wanting MLB baseball over the minors will choose to spend most of their money at the big league park. Now it's possible that the A's try to help out there AAA club, but that usually means cutting into their own profits.  

 

You're comparing situations that are nearly 70 years apart.  As pointed out by @LMU the shift in hockey as well as baseball and basketball is development first. That's why we're seeing AAA clubs like St. Paul, Sugar Land, Gwinnett, Tacoma and Vegas team up with parent clubs in baseball and Vegas, San Jose, Vancouver, Toronto, etc. in hockey.  Development is more important than profit.

 

But, they also wouldn't be doing it if they weren't making a profit. 

[WestCoastBias]

56 minutes ago, gosioux76 said:

 

I'm confused by this discussion. It's not like it's unusual for a MLB team to share the same market with their AAA affiliate. This is happening right now in the Twin Cities with the St. Paul Saints and has been the case since at least 1995 with the Mariners and the Tacoma Rainiers. Sugar Land, home to the AAA Skeeters, is in the Houston MSA, which is similar to Atlanta and Gwinnett. 

 

What exactly is the issue? 

 

- Houston is 5th largest metro area, 7.2 million people.

- Atlanta is the 8th largest metro area, 6.1 million people.

- Tacoma and Seattle are over 30 miles away from each other. Tacoma is also it's own city rather than a suburb, it's port is on par with Seattle in total trade for example. Also, 4 million people in the metro area.

- We all know Twin Cities is kind of a unique situation where Minneapolis and St Paul share the professional teams. The NBA arena is in Minneapolis while the NHL arena is in St Paul, it makes sense that St Paul would support the Triple-A team while the Twins play not too far away. Also, 3.7 million people in the metro area. 

 

I don't consider any of these existing examples relevant to whether the A's and Aviators could coexist 11 miles apart in a market that's only home to 2.3 million people. With the Golden Knights and Silver Knights, at least the Silver Knights are in Henderson which is an actual city (2nd largest in NV) that might have it's own identity to a degree rather than Summerlin which is a master planned community who's downtown is an outlet mall. It could work out fine, but there's nothing wrong with being skeptical about this. 

[gosioux76]

48 minutes ago, WestCoastBias said:

 

- Houston is 5th largest metro area, 7.2 million people.

- Atlanta is the 8th largest metro area, 6.1 million people.

- Tacoma and Seattle are over 30 miles away from each other. Tacoma is also it's own city rather than a suburb, it's port is on par with Seattle in total trade for example. Also, 4 million people in the metro area.

- We all know Twin Cities is kind of a unique situation where Minneapolis and St Paul share the professional teams. The NBA arena is in Minneapolis while the NHL arena is in St Paul, it makes sense that St Paul would support the Triple-A team while the Twins play not too far away. Also, 3.7 million people in the metro area. 

 

I don't consider any of these existing examples relevant to whether the A's and Aviators could coexist 11 miles apart in a market that's only home to 2.3 million people. With the Golden Knights and Silver Knights, at least the Silver Knights are in Henderson which is an actual city (2nd largest in NV) that might have it's own identity to a degree rather than Summerlin which is a master planned community who's downtown is an outlet mall. It could work out fine, but there's nothing wrong with being skeptical about this. 

 

Market size would only be a factor if the primary objectives were revenue and attendance data. But as @kimball pointed out, there are examples now where player development has taken prominence.

 

You dismissed the Twin Cities example because of how the pro teams are divided between two cities, but the primary reason why the Twins wanted the Saints as their AAA affiliate was for the convenience of having its big-league replacements just a short drive away, as opposed to a flight from Rochester, New York. This saves both time and travel costs, while also enabling the big-league coaching staff to continue working with the AAA talent and allowing big-league talent to take rehab assignments in the same market. 

 

And the Saints continue to be a draw not based upon market size, but on the unique identity they've carved out for themselves within the same market as the Twins. I see no reason why the Aviators couldn't do the same, regardless of market size. 

[Ridleylash]

Yeah, like, it seems weird to me to suggest that people in Vegas will completely dump the Aviators in favor of the A's instead of just, y'know...watching both. Suggesting that no fans of the major club would ever also watch a much more affordable product that lets them see their club's prospects in the same market is kinda absurd.
 

There's a reason so many teams have or are going to end up moving their affiliates to be much closer to them.

[TBGKon]

2 hours ago, MJWalker45 said:

There's a reason the Baltimore Orioles minor league team moved out of Baltimore when St. Louis moved in. It was because playing that close to a MLB team does not bring you more money, it's because people wanting MLB baseball over the minors will choose to spend most of their money at the big league park. Now it's possible that the A's try to help out there AAA club, but that usually means cutting into their own profits.  

That was also nearly 70 years ago.  The developmental model in professional baseball is a completely different situation.  Just using the current affiliate system, the following AAA teams are within 150 miles by car (some less than 100)

 

Sugar Land (to Houston)

Worcester (to Boston)

Columbus (to Cleveland)

Scranton Wilkes-Barre (to the Bronx)

Toledo (to Detroit)

Tacoma (to Seattle)

Buffalo (to Toronto)

St Paul (to Minneapolis)

Gwinnett (to Atlanta)

Lehigh Valley (to Philadelphia)

Sacramento (to San Francisco)

 

That's more than a third of the league, not to mention Round Rock and Omaha are just a hair over 150 miles.  If the A's and Aviators sharing the market is bound to happen, it's not like they're the first to do it.

[TBGKon]

3 hours ago, MJWalker45 said:

What are the chances of them being able to use Allegiant until their stadium is ready? I know the Raiders wouldn't want too many visitors in their new house, but for a one to two year stint it could be useful. 

Hard to say, I know US Bank Stadium in Minnesota was constructed to have a retractile sideline to fit a baseball field, but I don't know if Allegiant was built with that in mind.

 

[Sykotyk]

The other thing was a long time ago the cost to attend a major league game and a minor league game in terms of tickets were nearly the same. Also most of the time the major league team never came close to selling out their non weekend non major important games. 

 

Comparison, Houston cheapest ticket this Friday is $45. Sugar Land most expensive non luxury seat ticket for their next Friday home game is $27. And tickets as cheap as $12.

 

So yeah. They're ALL just gonna go watch the MLB team and ignore the AAA team. 

[FiddySicks]

I’m not sure what it’s like now since the affiliation switch, and it’s also been like three years since I’ve been to a game, but there was a LONG stretch of time where Sacramento RiverCats tickets were more expensive than Oakland A’s tickets. I would move the Aviators out of Vegas immediately just to avoid that potential disaster. 

[Ferdinand Cesarano]

Several people have pointed out that having a AAA team in the same metropolitan area as the Major League parent club is not a problem, as shown by the examples of Minnesota and Seattle.  Also, the Mets have their high-A team in New York City, as did the Yankees until recently.  What's more, let's note that every D-League / G-League team is located near to its NBA parent club, some within the same city.

 

Regarding the A's and their AAA team using the same stadium, neither team would have to play during the day.  The A's are on the road half the time, so the AAA team would be home then.

 

However, the president of the AAA team has already said that, in that case, the field would have to be converted to artificial turf, as a grass field could not withstand being used every day.

[B-Rich]

7 hours ago, gosioux76 said:

 

I don't disagree, but I also think it's helpful to point out here that the A's aren't seeking a straight cash handout from Nevada. The deal is for the state to sell $500M in government bonds, which the team would repaid over time from taxes and other revenue tied to the stadium project.

 

So essentially, it's the government using its bonding power to issue the team a loan. 

 

It's risky, considering this is the government putting its credit on the line, but it's far less politically complicated than a direct investment of taxpayer funds

 

Exactly, a great point. It will essentially be a TIF ( tax increment financing) deal. Any taxes on the site above what is being collected now/pre-stadium will be used to retire the bonds.  It's become very common in redevelopment projects across the USA.

[FiddySicks]

37 minutes ago, B-Rich said:

 

Exactly, a great point. It will essentially be a TIF ( tax increment financing) deal. Any taxes on the site above what is being collected now/pre-stadium will be used to retire the bonds.  It's become very common in redevelopment projects across the USA.

As a Nevada resident, I’m just hoping it isn’t a statewide proposal. Even if it’s not, it’s just more tax money being diverted away from the city/state and into the pockets of these rich owners. Vegas certainly doesn’t need less money for their police/fire/public works.  

[Bmac]

No way are they going to move the minor league team and then have an empty brand new minor league ballpark. And teams want their affiliates as close as possible. Aviators are definitely staying put.

[BBTV]

8 hours ago, gosioux76 said:

 

I don't disagree, but I also think it's helpful to point out here that the A's aren't seeking a straight cash handout from Nevada. The deal is for the state to sell $500M in government bonds, which the team would repaid over time from taxes and other revenue tied to the stadium project.

 

So essentially, it's the government using its bonding power to issue the team a loan. 

 

It's risky, considering this is the government putting its credit on the line, but it's far less politically complicated than a direct investment of taxpayer funds

 

I don't think that's how it works.  It sounds like the city gives the money to the team, and it's "repaid" by tax dollars that merely pay off the loan, rather than go to the city like tax dollars usually would.  It's totally a handout.  

 

"the A’s and the governor’s office seem to be considering a program in which tax dollars created by the stadium and its surrounding amenities would be directed into a special fund that would pay off public bonds used to subsidize a portion of the project’s cost. 

 

It would also include an unspecified amount of transferable tax credits — a form of corporate welfare only slightly less irresponsible than allowing the treasury department to give the team wheelbarrows full of cash. 

 

The practical implication of the special tax district would mean Clark County and the state wouldn’t actually see any tax revenue directly from the stadium for at least 30 years. And that feels like a steep price, considering the fact that Las Vegas isn’t exactly lacking the private capital (or incentive) to build world-class tourist attractions that actually contribute to state revenue streams. "

 

https://thenevadaindependent.com/article/public-financing-for-as-stadium-is-as-certain-as-it-is-foolish

[The_Admiral]

TIF districts, yeah, no one hates those with the intensity of a thousand suns.

[GDAWG]

 

[Ridleylash]

Lol, imagine if Kaval completely sinks his and Fisher's planned Vegas move through his own egotism

[Ferdinand Cesarano]

The thought that this plan could fall through gives me a sliver of hope.