Hot Stove: MLB Offseason Thread

[FiddySicks]

Ken_Rosenthal

Royals trade OF Melky Cabrera to San Francisco for P Jonathan Sanchez and minor-league pitcher Verdugo.

Nice job by the Royals selling high on Cabrera.

Sanchez was expendable, and from what I know (not a whole lot) Cabrera is a pretty decent hitter. Don't know anything about Verdugo, though. We need hitting desperately, Sanchez has a history of injuries and mental mistakes, and this motivates the Giants to reup Ryan Vogelsong to be the #3 or #4 starter. Zito, or any random guy in the minors will do fine in the 5th spot for now.

[TFoA]

Thome to the Phils?

Um, why?

Considering the money involved, the role he's gonna play, and the history that he has with Manuel & the Phillies franchise, this was an excellent move by Philly.

[RedSox44]

Thome to the Phils?

Um, why?

He wanted to come back at the August trade deadline but was never going to make it through to the Phils. He loves Manuel, he liked Philly, they need power off the bench (he won't replace Howard at 1B while Ryan recovers) and it could be his last shot at a ring...

God, I hope so.

The guy is great but I seriously thought this season was the last one, and what a way to end it by heading back to Cleveland. I guess not but this SHOULD be the end in 2012 ...

Except that he really isn't. Someone around here came up with the perfect description of Jim Thome. If memory serves, it was after he hit HR #600 and the Thome to the HOF talk started. They said something to the effect of "Jim Thome has 600 home runs yet he has never, at any point in his career, even been the best player on his team." There were a few times during Thome's career where he was really good, but at no point along the way do I think he's ever been "great."

Thome hit a lot of home runs. No offense, but he's is closer to being Dave Kingman than he is to being a great ballplayer.

I think Thome was overshadowed because of his PED-using counterparts, and because he doesn't have a large personality, and isn't a media whore, so he went mostly ignored by the press. He only once hit over 50 home runs, and it was 2002 so everyone was gushing over A-Rod (in 2002, he was by far the best player on the 74-88 Indians).

Plus, he's done something only seven other human beings have ever done (only four of which did it without using PEDs), thus ensuring his Hall of Fame-ness.

Also, Kingman's a lifetime .232 hitter. Thome's a lifetime .277 hitter. Kingman never once hit over .300, while Thome did it an (unimpressive) three times (but he did approach .300 several times throughout his career).

Either way, if he doesn't get in, oh so many baseball fans will be pissed off.

[Joshawaggie]

Probably the best move the Twins could make this offseason. They fired GM Billy Smith and rehired Terry Ryan as interim.

[Lee.]

If they try to lure Hendry in as GM I officially give up on them.

[infrared41]

Except that he really isn't. Someone around here came up with the perfect description of Jim Thome. If memory serves, it was after he hit HR #600 and the Thome to the HOF talk started. They said something to the effect of "Jim Thome has 600 home runs yet he has never, at any point in his career, even been the best player on his team." There were a few times during Thome's career where he was really good, but at no point along the way do I think he's ever been "great."

Thome hit a lot of home runs. No offense, but he's is closer to being Dave Kingman than he is to being a great ballplayer.

I think Thome was overshadowed because of his PED-using counterparts, and because he doesn't have a large personality, and isn't a media whore, so he went mostly ignored by the press. He only once hit over 50 home runs, and it was 2002 so everyone was gushing over A-Rod (in 2002, he was by far the best player on the 74-88 Indians).

Plus, he's done something only seven other human beings have ever done (only four of which did it without using PEDs), thus ensuring his Hall of Fame-ness.

Also, Kingman's a lifetime .232 hitter. Thome's a lifetime .277 hitter. Kingman never once hit over .300, while Thome did it an (unimpressive) three times (but he did approach .300 several times throughout his career).

Either way, if he doesn't get in, oh so many baseball fans will be pissed off.

What I said was Thome is closer to being Kingman than he is to being a HOF player. I didn't say he was like Kingman. Yes, Thome was the best player on the 2002 Indians but that's a dubious distinction. There's no arguing that the guy hit a lot of home runs. But that's about all he did. "Oh so many" baseball fans might be pissed off if Thome doesn't make the HOF, but I won't be one of them. If there were a "hall of pretty good ballplayers who did one thing really well", I'd vote for Thome's induction. My opinion is that he is not a hall of famer. Sorry.

[FiddySicks]

Hopefully Thome isn't as much of an a$$ as Kingman was. I played little league with his daughter, and he was an absolute dick.

[dfwabel]

Ron Washington's pre-Game 7 speech NSFW

[Punch]

Probably the best move the Twins could make this offseason. They fired GM Billy Smith and rehired Terry Ryan as interim.

I can't put into words how great this is. The direction this organization was going was brutal. The Twins used to have one of the best farm systems in the league. Now the entire farm system is in the majors. Plus, Nishioka in favor of JJ Hardy?

I'm also hoping this move keeps Cuddyer and Kubel around, as Ryan was the GM who signed the two. It also should show them that the Twins want to put together a winning team and that they are most certainly not in rebuilding mode.

Regardless, I am excited for the remainder of the Twins' offseason.

[infrared41]

Hopefully Thome isn't as much of an a$$ as Kingman was. I played little league with his daughter, and he was an absolute dick.

He's not. I met Thome when I was working in radio. The Indians do a dinner banquet/press tour thing every winter. I was basically the liaison between the players and the press (our station sponsored the event.) Anyway, I got to spend a good deal of time with Thome and a few other players at the event. Thome was great. He is one of the nicest ballplayers you'll ever meet. Just a really good guy.

[NJTank]

Dave Kingman's douchery is well known and nearly unmatched.

[Lights Out]

Thome hit a lot of home runs. No offense, but he's is closer to being Dave Kingman than he is to being a great ballplayer.

Thome: 145 career wRC+, Kingman: 113.

Thome: 71.5 career WAR, Kingman: 25.0. (Thome also has a 49.85 career WPA to go with that WAR, whereas Kingman's is only 10.04.)

Thome: .321 career BABIP, Kingman: .252.

Thome: .959 career OPS, Kingman: .780.

I could keep going, but you get the point. Thome may not be a superstar but to say he's "closer to being Dave Kingman than a great ballplayer" is way off the mark.

[infrared41]

Thome hit a lot of home runs. No offense, but he's is closer to being Dave Kingman than he is to being a great ballplayer.

Thome: 145 career wRC+, Kingman: 113.

Thome: 71.5 career WAR, Kingman: 25.0. (Thome also has a 49.85 career WPA to go with that WAR, whereas Kingman's is only 10.04.)

Thome: .321 career BABIP, Kingman: .252.

Thome: .959 career OPS, Kingman: .780.

I could keep going, but you get the point. Thome may not be a superstar but to say he's "closer to being Dave Kingman than a great ballplayer" is way off the mark.

You sabr people and your damned numbers. Can't a guy say something for effect without being bombarded with a bunch BABIP and wRC+ BS?

[McCall]

Thome hit a lot of home runs. No offense, but he's is closer to being Dave Kingman than he is to being a great ballplayer.

Thome: 145 career wRC+, Kingman: 113.

Thome: 71.5 career WAR, Kingman: 25.0. (Thome also has a 49.85 career WPA to go with that WAR, whereas Kingman's is only 10.04.)

Thome: .321 career BABIP, Kingman: .252.

Thome: .959 career OPS, Kingman: .780.

I could keep going, but you get the point. Thome may not be a superstar but to say he's "closer to being Dave Kingman than a great ballplayer" is way off the mark.

You sabr people and your damned numbers. Can't a guy say something for effect without being bombarded with a bunch BABIP and wRC+ BS?

A players OBSILP in the 2nd week of July every other year excluding leap years or whenever the groundhog does NOT see his shadow, unless there is a 27% chance of rain while the President of Schlictmootenstein is on a boat in the Indian Ocean within 75 miles of an unoccupied island and as long as the summer ratings of NBC's Tuesday night line-up is above or equal to the the number of Duggar children currently in grades 4-8, once Angelina Jolie adopts an orphaned (or unorphaned, it doesn't really matter) child from a third world country (or Kansas, no difference between the two), you can figure in the sunrise and sunset times accordingly and adjust based on wind speeds in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, is the most obvious way to determine a players HOF chances...

Du-uh. (Pfft. Why don't you go put a skirt on)

[NJTank]

Thome hit a lot of home runs. No offense, but he's is closer to being Dave Kingman than he is to being a great ballplayer.

Thome: 145 career wRC+, Kingman: 113.

Thome: 71.5 career WAR, Kingman: 25.0. (Thome also has a 49.85 career WPA to go with that WAR, whereas Kingman's is only 10.04.)

Thome: .321 career BABIP, Kingman: .252.

Thome: .959 career OPS, Kingman: .780.

I could keep going, but you get the point. Thome may not be a superstar but to say he's "closer to being Dave Kingman than a great ballplayer" is way off the mark.

You sabr people and your damned numbers. Can't a guy say something for effect without being bombarded with a bunch BABIP and wRC+ BS?

Told you Sabrmeterics is evil

[The_Admiral]

A players OBSILP in the 2nd week of July every other year excluding leap years or whenever the groundhog does NOT see his shadow, unless there is a 27% chance of rain while the President of Schlictmootenstein is on a boat in the Indian Ocean within 75 miles of an unoccupied island and as long as the summer ratings of NBC's Tuesday night line-up is above or equal to the the number of Duggar children currently in grades 4-8, once Angelina Jolie adopts an orphaned (or unorphaned, it doesn't really matter) child from a third world country (or Kansas, no difference between the two), you can figure in the sunrise and sunset times accordingly and adjust based on wind speeds in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, is the most obvious way to determine a players HOF chances...

Du-uh. (Pfft. Why don't you go put a skirt on)

People who refuse to accept any merits of statistics or scouting are like people who refuse to have beverages with their dinner. I suppose you can, but why?

[TFoA]

Thome hit a lot of home runs. No offense, but he's is closer to being Dave Kingman than he is to being a great ballplayer.

Thome: 145 career wRC+, Kingman: 113.

Thome: 71.5 career WAR, Kingman: 25.0. (Thome also has a 49.85 career WPA to go with that WAR, whereas Kingman's is only 10.04.)

Thome: .321 career BABIP, Kingman: .252.

Thome: .959 career OPS, Kingman: .780.

I could keep going, but you get the point. Thome may not be a superstar but to say he's "closer to being Dave Kingman than a great ballplayer" is way off the mark.

You sabr people and your damned numbers. Can't a guy say something for effect without being bombarded with a bunch BABIP and wRC+ BS?

A players OBSILP in the 2nd week of July every other year excluding leap years or whenever the groundhog does NOT see his shadow, unless there is a 27% chance of rain while the President of Schlictmootenstein is on a boat in the Indian Ocean within 75 miles of an unoccupied island and as long as the summer ratings of NBC's Tuesday night line-up is above or equal to the the number of Duggar children currently in grades 4-8, once Angelina Jolie adopts an orphaned (or unorphaned, it doesn't really matter) child from a third world country (or Kansas, no difference between the two), you can figure in the sunrise and sunset times accordingly and adjust based on wind speeds in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, is the most obvious way to determine a players HOF chances...

Du-uh. (Pfft. Why don't you go put a skirt on)

TBH, the data that LO posted was pretty simple.

[Lights Out]

A players OBSILP in the 2nd week of July every other year excluding leap years or whenever the groundhog does NOT see his shadow, unless there is a 27% chance of rain while the President of Schlictmootenstein is on a boat in the Indian Ocean within 75 miles of an unoccupied island and as long as the summer ratings of NBC's Tuesday night line-up is above or equal to the the number of Duggar children currently in grades 4-8, once Angelina Jolie adopts an orphaned (or unorphaned, it doesn't really matter) child from a third world country (or Kansas, no difference between the two), you can figure in the sunrise and sunset times accordingly and adjust based on wind speeds in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, is the most obvious way to determine a players HOF chances...

Du-uh. (Pfft. Why don't you go put a skirt on)

...Or, instead of typing out a tl;dr lame joke like that, you could have Googled the stats I referenced and understood what I was talking about.

[Eye]

Thome to the Phils?

Um, why?

He wanted to come back at the August trade deadline but was never going to make it through to the Phils. He loves Manuel, he liked Philly, they need power off the bench (he won't replace Howard at 1B while Ryan recovers) and it could be his last shot at a ring...

God, I hope so.

The guy is great but I seriously thought this season was the last one, and what a way to end it by heading back to Cleveland. I guess not but this SHOULD be the end in 2012 ...

Except that he really isn't. Someone around here came up with the perfect description of Jim Thome. If memory serves, it was after he hit HR #600 and the Thome to the HOF talk started. They said something to the effect of "Jim Thome has 600 home runs yet he has never, at any point in his career, even been the best player on his team." There were a few times during Thome's career where he was really good, but at no point along the way do I think he's ever been "great."

Thome hit a lot of home runs. No offense, but he's is closer to being Dave Kingman than he is to being a great ballplayer.

Completely disagree with your argument. To hit 600 home runs in a career, you have to be at the very least, consistent. Thome was consistent, and to me, consistency can't out of nowhere, all of a sudden mean nothing. Consistency is used as a barometer for a lot of HOFers and I think that it is disingenuous to not use that barometer for Thome. I don't know if you use consistency as an argument or how much emphasis you put on it, infrared, but I think that because the consistency factor is used on other HOFers, Thome has to be in.

- 16 seasons of 20+ HRs

- 12 seasons of 30+ HRs

- 6 seasons of 40+ HRs with a career high of 52

- 2,287 hits

- 1,674 RBI

A lot of strikeouts at 2,487 and not the greatest batting average at .277, but I think he's in.

Fake edit: Slight thread jack, I guess.

[TFoA]

The Phillies just gave Ryan Madson a 4 year, $44M contract.

So they follow up a pretty good move with the Thome deal with this clunker.

Only five relievers have been guaranteed more money over a single contract than the proposed Madson deal:

• B.J. Ryan received a five-year, $47 million deal from the Toronto Blue Jays before the 2006 season.
  
• Mariano Rivera signed a three-year, $45 million deal to stay with the Yankees from 2008-2010.
  
• Joe Nathan signed a four-year, $47 million extension with the Minnesota Twins covering 2008-2011.
  
• Francisco Cordero signed a four-year, $46 million deal with the Cincinnati Reds covering 2008-2011.

I guess if you've got the money, spend it.