NHL Metropolitan Division

[rams80]

Maybe not Cleveland, but there are other cities that likely would support the Jacks more than Columbus.

Show me a city who would support 12 years of losing and horrible management. I'll wait.

Maybe a Canadian city, although they likely would have burned down the arena and put management to the sword by now.

Columbus was getting decent attendance for video game simulations of games during the most recent lockout. They stay.

[The_Admiral]

Columbus's highly admirable support of the first four seasons of terrible Beej hockey (to say nothing of subsequent post-lockout years of terrible Beej hockey) is why the Seattle people, with their "you'd better give us an existing team, I don't think we have it in us to watch an expansion team" garbage, pissed me off so royally.

I don't know, though, it's hard to feel one way or the other about Columbus. It's not the affront to decent hockey sensibilities that Nashville, Raleigh, or Florida are, and certainly not the dumpster fire that Phoenix is, but it's not a slam dunk. It just is. They're doing fine enough, it just never would have occurred to me in a hundred years to stick a team there with all the other places out there.

[Magnus]

Markham?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! No. A second Toronto team will NEVER work. The Leafs could block the move on their own, and likely would, too. They have a legal monopoly on pro hockey in one of, if not the, most hockey crazed markets in the world. Why would they voluntarily give that up?

Expansion fee, territorial rights fee/TV fees (a la Orioles/Nats) and other fees they could charge the expansion team for just existing, somewhat like Harold Ballard's efforts against the Toronto Toros in the 1970s. Dolla dolla bills, y'all.

[-kj]

A second Toronto team will NEVER work.

I swear I made this argument to you years ago and you disagreed. Glad to see you've come around.

[JCRGraphix]

Markham?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! No. A second Toronto team will NEVER work. The Leafs could block the move on their own, and likely would, too. They have a legal monopoly on pro hockey in one of, if not the, most hockey crazed markets in the world. Why would they voluntarily give that up?

Expansion fee, territorial rights fee/TV fees (a la Orioles/Nats) and other fees they could charge the expansion team for just existing, somewhat like Harold Ballard's efforts against the Toronto Toros in the 1970s. Dolla dolla bills, y'all.

And that it what it is all about.

[The_Admiral]

A second Toronto team will NEVER work.

I swear I made this argument to you years ago and you disagreed. Glad to see you've come around.

I figured as a Leafs fan outside the GTA he was always skeptical of anyone trying in vain to challenge the Leafs. Even I, who have been accused of wanting every team in Canada (why? I am a Blackhawks fan), was solidly against Hamilton for the same no-chance-once-the-Leafs-are-good-again reasons. And hey, look who's good again.

[IceCap]

Markham?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! No. A second Toronto team will NEVER work. The Leafs could block the move on their own, and likely would, too. They have a legal monopoly on pro hockey in one of, if not the, most hockey crazed markets in the world. Why would they voluntarily give that up?

Expansion fee, territorial rights fee/TV fees (a la Orioles/Nats) and other fees they could charge the expansion team for just existing, somewhat like Harold Ballard's efforts against the Toronto Toros in the 1970s. Dolla dolla bills, y'all.

All short term. Sure the Leafs would get a huge territorial fee buyout, but that's a one time payment. It isn't the 1970s anymore, and the new team wouldn't be in a rival league. After that initial payment the Leafs couldn't charge them "for just existing." They'd have their own arena, and likely their own tv deals. And after that initial payment they'd be free to try and carve out a section of southern Ontario's hockey fandom for themselves. How much they'd manage to get is up for debate but if you're MLSE why risk it? Why give up your stranglehold on the market for a short term payment? Especially when you're MLSE and don't need the money.

A second Toronto team will NEVER work.

I swear I made this argument to you years ago and you disagreed. Glad to see you've come around.

Live, learn, and grow, man

You're still wrong about the Royal family though

A second Toronto team will NEVER work.

I swear I made this argument to you years ago and you disagreed. Glad to see you've come around.

I figured as a Leafs fan outside the GTA he was always skeptical of anyone trying in vain to challenge the Leafs. Even I, who have been accused of wanting every team in Canada (why? I am a Blackhawks fan), was solidly against Hamilton for the same no-chance-once-the-Leafs-are-good-again reasons. And hey, look who's good again.

I was never for a second team within the GTA, but I thought Hamilton could work once upon a time. Until I realized that the same reasons it wouldn't work in Markham applied to Hamilton.

[Alex Houston]

I find the statement about Clevelanders being antagonistic towards hockey just downright weird. They're bordered by established success in two markets within a four hour drive and are surrounded by hockey fans in Michigan and Pennslyvania. You would think they'd be ideal for an NHL franchise, yet their inability to hang onto one is very perplexing.

[Evil G]

I find the statement about Clevelanders being antagonistic towards hockey just downright weird. They're bordered by established success in two markets within a four hour drive and are surrounded by hockey fans in Michigan and Pennslyvania. You would think they'd be ideal for an NHL franchise, yet their inability to hang onto one is very perplexing.

Also, the Lake Erie Monsters are doing well in AHL attendance.

[DaytonBlue]

Wasn't part of the rationale for putting the Blue Jackets in Columbus was to appeal to all of Ohio?

I went to a couple games a year while I lived in Dayton (well, except in 04-05 of course).

[BBTV]

I find the statement about Clevelanders being antagonistic towards hockey just downright weird. They're bordered by established success in two markets within a four hour drive and are surrounded by hockey fans in Michigan and Pennslyvania. You would think they'd be ideal for an NHL franchise, yet their inability to hang onto one is very perplexing.

I think it's hard to judge a market that doesn't have a "home" team. In just about every market, there are fans of the "sport", who could sit around and watch the Flin Flon major junior minor squirt league games, and you have people who will cheer for any team or anything with their city's name on the chest. The thing is making sure that the population of chest thumpers has the means to attend expensive basketball and hockey games, or can have their support of the basketball team stolen by the new hockey team. Additionally, you need to get the entire community to buy in, and have the powerplays sponsored, the intermission sponsored, the broadcasts sponsored, etc (and a radio / tv network that will cooperate.) It's a lot more than "people like hockey there". I don't know anything about cleveland (other than that if you're not from there, you just won't understand), but I'm assuming that there's a reason there's no team there - most likely because nobody has interest in bringing one there because nobody feels like it will make money. Has very little to do with the fans enthusiasm - mostly their pockets.

[Alex Houston]

I find the statement about Clevelanders being antagonistic towards hockey just downright weird. They're bordered by established success in two markets within a four hour drive and are surrounded by hockey fans in Michigan and Pennslyvania. You would think they'd be ideal for an NHL franchise, yet their inability to hang onto one is very perplexing.

I think it's hard to judge a market that doesn't have a "home" team. In just about every market, there are fans of the "sport", who could sit around and watch the Flin Flon major junior minor squirt league games, and you have people who will cheer for any team or anything with their city's name on the chest. The thing is making sure that the population of chest thumpers has the means to attend expensive basketball and hockey games, or can have their support of the basketball team stolen by the new hockey team. Additionally, you need to get the entire community to buy in, and have the powerplays sponsored, the intermission sponsored, the broadcasts sponsored, etc (and a radio / tv network that will cooperate.) It's a lot more than "people like hockey there". I don't know anything about cleveland (other than that if you're not from there, you just won't understand), but I'm assuming that there's a reason there's no team there - most likely because nobody has interest in bringing one there because nobody feels like it will make money. Has very little to do with the fans enthusiasm - mostly their pockets.

Good points made, with the best one bolded. I've never liked that rationale when sports fans get into meandering debates about markets that "deserve" a franchise more than others. Sports are businesses, first and foremost and no market "deserves" anything more than anyone else. Save the elitism for another forum.

[HedleyLamarr]

When the Jackets first started playing attendance was through the roof. Attendance was through the roof the season they made the playoffs. It's a market that's proven that it can support a team. Unlike Phoenix, which still struggled with attendance a season removed from a Western Conference Finals run. The Jackets have loyal fans, a community that's willing to support them if the team meets them halfway, and a market that the NHL should have a presence in anyway (Ohio). In a league that includes the Phoenix Coyotes of Arizona and the Florida Panthers you want to talk about moving the Blue Jackets? Child please.

Gee....sounds a lot like the Thrashers, yet everyone was wanting them out of Atlanta.

The Thrashers set attendance records for an expansion team, and sold out most of their games in their lone playoff season. Hell, the team was actually turning a profit under Turner's watch. And even though it doesn't snow often here, the nation's 8th-largest media market is definitely large enough to have an NHL team.

It's like the fact of "the ownership never wanted the team and wouldn't sell them to a buyer that wanted to keep the team in the same arena" just fell over deaf ears. The Thrashers could have made money and the Atlanta Spirit still wouldn't have wanted the team nor want them playing in their building.

[Gothamite]

The Seattle people, with their "you'd better give us an existing team, I don't think we have it in us to watch an expansion team" garbage, pissed me off so royally.

Source?

[Eye]

When the Jackets first started playing attendance was through the roof. Attendance was through the roof the season they made the playoffs. It's a market that's proven that it can support a team. Unlike Phoenix, which still struggled with attendance a season removed from a Western Conference Finals run. The Jackets have loyal fans, a community that's willing to support them if the team meets them halfway, and a market that the NHL should have a presence in anyway (Ohio). In a league that includes the Phoenix Coyotes of Arizona and the Florida Panthers you want to talk about moving the Blue Jackets? Child please.

Gee....sounds a lot like the Thrashers, yet everyone was wanting them out of Atlanta.

The Thrashers set attendance records for an expansion team, and sold out most of their games in their lone playoff season. Hell, the team was actually turning a profit under Turner's watch. And even though it doesn't snow often here, the nation's 8th-largest media market is definitely large enough to have an NHL team.

It's like the fact of "the ownership never wanted the team and wouldn't sell them to a buyer that wanted to keep the team in the same arena" just fell over deaf ears. The Thrashers could have made money and the Atlanta Spirit still wouldn't have wanted the team nor want them playing in their building.

Right, but #Lumbus!

[Magnus]

So...has this thread been Clevejacked...or...?

[Evil G]

I think it has been. What have I done?

[Cosmic]

Columbus was 28th in attendance. Even if that above statement is true, they just don't go out and support the team.

500 people per game is all that separates Columbus from Winnipeg, who sell out every game.

[njmeadowlanders]

Columbus was 28th in attendance. Even if that above statement is true, they just don't go out and support the team.

500 people per game is all that separates Columbus from Winnipeg, who sell out every game.

...though the average ticket price in Winnipeg probably dwarfs that of Columbus, and the Jets could sell a few thousand more per night had they built the arena for the NHL...

[IceCap]

When the Jackets first started playing attendance was through the roof. Attendance was through the roof the season they made the playoffs. It's a market that's proven that it can support a team. Unlike Phoenix, which still struggled with attendance a season removed from a Western Conference Finals run. The Jackets have loyal fans, a community that's willing to support them if the team meets them halfway, and a market that the NHL should have a presence in anyway (Ohio). In a league that includes the Phoenix Coyotes of Arizona and the Florida Panthers you want to talk about moving the Blue Jackets? Child please.

Gee....sounds a lot like the Thrashers, yet everyone was wanting them out of Atlanta.

The Thrashers set attendance records for an expansion team, and sold out most of their games in their lone playoff season. Hell, the team was actually turning a profit under Turner's watch. And even though it doesn't snow often here, the nation's 8th-largest media market is definitely large enough to have an NHL team.

It's like the fact of "the ownership never wanted the team and wouldn't sell them to a buyer that wanted to keep the team in the same arena" just fell over deaf ears. The Thrashers could have made money and the Atlanta Spirit still wouldn't have wanted the team nor want them playing in their building.

Most of all the Atlanta Spirit Group! Bad timing when low fan interest meets an ownership group that wants out meets a NHL commissioner desperate to save his failed experiment out in the desert.