What are some of the best baseball cities?

[BBTV]

The A's actually started in Philadelphia. So yes the city can support two teams. But I don't see any city getting a second Major League team. The ones that already have two are enough.

Supporting 2 teams then Doesn't necessarily mean they can now. Current teams have been too established that another team may not be successful coming into that fanbase. Chicago, NY and LA metro have had their teams for so long that a natural "split" has occurred. That's not very likely to happen at this point. I don't think St. Louis would be successful with a second team at all, and Philly and Boston, too, have too enriched fandoms that, though they seem like possible 2 team markets, they probably wouldn't work. In all honesty, I think NY adding a 3rd team (to probably New Jersey) would be the most likely scenario of adding a team to an existing market that has even the slightest chance of being successful, and even in that case it STILL would probably be a failure.

There was some talk of a second team back before the state came up with the money for all of the new stadiums. The Phillies were close to Clipper levels of irrelevancy, due to their suckiness, dilapidated stadium (which certainly had its "charm", but wasn't something that people were going to brave traffic for hours to get to when there's no team playing there), and mostly, their ownership "partnership" that didn't put a dime into anything and gave nobody any reason to care. They essentially robbed an entire generation of exciting baseball.

There was talk that some investor could build a stadium in the great North East or even possibly Center City and lure a second team or fight for an expansion team. The Phillies die-hards would have stayed loyal, but I really do think that a second team would be accepted and even if it would have been more of a locally-supported team (like the White Sox vs the Cubs), it would have been a success. You're talking about a metro area of more than 6M people. There's no reason multiple franchises in each sport couldn't work (if done at the absolute right time.)

I really laugh at the whole "traffic" argument. Has anyone ever made this argument that has lived in a traditional Northeast city as well as a southern city? I get that mass transit isn't the same in the south, but even in the NE, it's not an option for a lot of people. If you want to get to the game, you're going to get to the game. Nobody wanted to go to Phillies games, so they weren't going to deal with the various "express"ways and potentially dangerous public transit system. A second franchise that was closer and more convenient to the apathetic fanbase would have been fantastic. Not sure it's possible now with the Phillies recent success and the hold they've taken over the city, but once they go back to sucking and people stop caring again, another opportunity could be there (hopefully that won't be for a loooong time though!)

[Dexter Morgan]

Everyone is going to claim their city is the best...but Cleveland sold out 455 games straight, that pretty much speaks for itself.

I'd say most cities follow their teams pretty well except Toronto, Pittsburgh, and Tampa Bay...

Toronto and Pittsburgh are ahead of Cleveland in terms of attendance chief.

Did this topic say "this year" anywhere?? what about the past 18 years when pittsburgh was a terrible? They're just showing up now they because have a mediocre team, instead of a bottomfeeder

If we're using history in this discussion, who was the first city to reach 5 millions fans for a season....Yeah Toronto.

Stadium looked pretty empty the last few nights vs. the Yankees.

[Gothamite]

I don't think NYC's a good baseball town either, with that population base, the Yanks should sell out every game.

That's not very fair. I mean, the Mets have their own chunk of the NYC attendance pie (and they do get decent attendance), so it's not like the Yankees are the only team in town.

In addition to the two MLB teams, there are also two well-supported minor league clubs, corporate and amateur leagues (even more if you count softball), municipal leagues and an absolute ton of youth leagues. Everybody plays it. Kids all over the city grow up on a diamond.

By any definition, New York is a great baseball town.

[pmoehrin]

The A's actually started in Philadelphia. So yes the city can support two teams. But I don't see any city getting a second Major League team. The ones that already have two are enough.

Supporting 2 teams then Doesn't necessarily mean they can now. Current teams have been too established that another team may not be successful coming into that fanbase. Chicago, NY and LA metro have had their teams for so long that a natural "split" has occurred. That's not very likely to happen at this point. I don't think St. Louis would be successful with a second team at all, and Philly and Boston, too, have too enriched fandoms that, though they seem like possible 2 team markets, they probably wouldn't work. In all honesty, I think NY adding a 3rd team (to probably New Jersey) would be the most likely scenario of adding a team to an existing market that has even the slightest chance of being successful, and even in that case it STILL would probably be a failure.

A NJ based team has no shot to survive. Northern NJ is mostly Yankee fans with a lot of Mets fans sprinkled in. South Jersey is Yankee, Mets, and a lot of Phillies. A 4th team isn't competing with he Yankees, Mets, and Phillies.

A north Jersey team I think could do okay, but a team in Brooklyn would draw.

Problem lies with territory rights. The Mets, Yankees and Phillies would all throw fits if the MLB ever wanted to put a third team in NYC, or in Jersey. They throw fits over any affiliated minor league teams being in Jersey. No way is another MLB club ever getting into the NYC metro area or the Philly metro area. You'll see baseball go back to Montrel before that happens and I don't see Montreal getting another club for a long time either.

[Dexter Morgan]

Carolina A's? Could Charlotte support a MLB team?

[pmoehrin]

Carolina A's? Could Charlotte support a MLB team?

Been there enough to say that's its not a pro sports town. The Panthers do okay, but that's about it. Bobcats don't do anything and the Hurricanes don't do anything. The Hornets were popular, but I think George Shinn effectively killed off any interest in pro basketball.

College is king in the south, both football and basketball. I would be willing to bet more people in Carolina would rather see UNC take home the BCS title then the Panthers win the Super Bowl.

I would not consider Charlotte a candidate for an MLB team. Certainly not over Portland who does well with the Blazers and Timbers.

[Dexter Morgan]

Carolina A's? Could Charlotte support a MLB team?

Been there enough to say that's its not a pro sports town. The Panthers do okay, but that's about it. Bobcats don't do anything and the Hurricanes don't do anything. The Hornets were popular, but I think George Shinn effectively killed off any interest in pro basketball.

College is king in the south, both football and basketball. I would be willing to bet more people in Carolina would rather see UNC take home the BCS title then the Panthers win the Super Bowl.

I would not consider Charlotte a candidate for an MLB team. Certainly not over Portland who does well with the Blazers and Timbers.

Portland was my next suggestion. I remember there was a movement for a MLB a few years ago. It would also be an easier transition for the A's,who would stay in the same division.

[vmd9]

How long until the MLB fans from canada start claiming that the DBacks or Braves should move to Winnipeg?

[infrared41]

Carolina A's? Could Charlotte support a MLB team?

Been there enough to say that's its not a pro sports town. The Panthers do okay, but that's about it. Bobcats don't do anything and the Hurricanes don't do anything. The Hornets were popular, but I think George Shinn effectively killed off any interest in pro basketball.

I'm no expert, but do you think the Hurricanes might draw better in Charlotte if they didn't, you know, play in Raleigh?

On topic; an MLB team in Charlotte would be a disaster.

[pmoehrin]

Carolina A's? Could Charlotte support a MLB team?

Been there enough to say that's its not a pro sports town. The Panthers do okay, but that's about it. Bobcats don't do anything and the Hurricanes don't do anything. The Hornets were popular, but I think George Shinn effectively killed off any interest in pro basketball.

I'm no expert, but do you think the Hurricanes might draw better in Charlotte if they didn't, you know, play in Raleigh?

On topic; an MLB team in Charlotte would be a disaster.

It wouldn't matter. I was at a sports bar when the Hurricanes were in the Stanley Cup Finals. I'd say maybe three people were actually watching the game.

[IceCap]

How long until the MLB fans from canada start claiming that the DBacks or Braves should move to Winnipeg?

Your gimmick is overplayed.

[McCall]

The A's actually started in Philadelphia. So yes the city can support two teams. But I don't see any city getting a second Major League team. The ones that already have two are enough.

Supporting 2 teams then Doesn't necessarily mean they can now. Current teams have been too established that another team may not be successful coming into that fanbase. Chicago, NY and LA metro have had their teams for so long that a natural "split" has occurred. That's not very likely to happen at this point. I don't think St. Louis would be successful with a second team at all, and Philly and Boston, too, have too enriched fandoms that, though they seem like possible 2 team markets, they probably wouldn't work. In all honesty, I think NY adding a 3rd team (to probably New Jersey) would be the most likely scenario of adding a team to an existing market that has even the slightest chance of being successful, and even in that case it STILL would probably be a failure.

There was some talk of a second team back before the state came up with the money for all of the new stadiums. The Phillies were close to Clipper levels of irrelevancy, due to their suckiness, dilapidated stadium (which certainly had its "charm", but wasn't something that people were going to brave traffic for hours to get to when there's no team playing there), and mostly, their ownership "partnership" that didn't put a dime into anything and gave nobody any reason to care. They essentially robbed an entire generation of exciting baseball.

There was talk that some investor could build a stadium in the great North East or even possibly Center City and lure a second team or fight for an expansion team. The Phillies die-hards would have stayed loyal, but I really do think that a second team would be accepted and even if it would have been more of a locally-supported team (like the White Sox vs the Cubs), it would have been a success. You're talking about a metro area of more than 6M people. There's no reason multiple franchises in each sport couldn't work (if done at the absolute right time.)

I really laugh at the whole "traffic" argument. Has anyone ever made this argument that has lived in a traditional Northeast city as well as a southern city? I get that mass transit isn't the same in the south, but even in the NE, it's not an option for a lot of people. If you want to get to the game, you're going to get to the game. Nobody wanted to go to Phillies games, so they weren't going to deal with the various "express"ways and potentially dangerous public transit system. A second franchise that was closer and more convenient to the apathetic fanbase would have been fantastic. Not sure it's possible now with the Phillies recent success and the hold they've taken over the city, but once they go back to sucking and people stop caring again, another opportunity could be there (hopefully that won't be for a loooong time though!)

Question (serious question), don't you think those fans who would turn to the other Philly team because the Phils were bad would do the same thing to a new team when they're struggling, thus negating the plausibility of a second team?

[pcgd]

I know I'm a homer cause I'm a Cardinals fan but 2 things point to St. Louis being one of the best (one good and one bad)

first, St. Louis is one of only a few teams that outdraws the population base. Now I know this isn't the best indicator but its something to consider. These are based on last year's attendance and this an estimated population of the metro area. The number is a percentage of the metro population that went to see the team play in 2010.

Milwaukee 1.58

St. Louis 1.18

Colorado 1.12

Minnesota 0.98

Cincinnati 0.96

San Francisco 0.81

Kansas City 0.73

San Diego 0.68

Pittsburgh 0.68

Boston 0.67

Chicago Cubs 0.64

Baltimore 0.64

Seattle 0.63

Cleveland 0.61

Philadelphia 0.59

Detroit 0.57

Arizona 0.49

Atlanta 0.47

Los Angeles Dodgers 0.46

Tampa Bay 0.46

Chicago White Sox 0.42

Los Angeles Angels 0.42

New York Yankees 0.39

Texas 0.38

Oakland 0.38

Houston 0.38

Washington 0.32

Toronto 0.31

Florida 0.27

New York Mets 0.27

Like I said, I know there are a number of things wrong with using this as an end all be all, but honestly Milwaukee surprised me being on top and this is slanted towards smaller markets. To help that I split the 2 team's cities population in half for the figures. I mostly had put this together cause I always found it cool that the cardinals consistently went over the 3 million attendance mark with about 2.75 million people living in the metro area. I figured they had to be the tops in that but I was wrong with Milwaukee having about a much greater percentage of their population attending a game.

Just some of the flaws I know are that for the Yankees you'd be able to sell many more tickets if the stadium was bigger. And Minnesota just opened a new stadium in 2010. Also the team's level of play is not taken into consideration, perhaps a 5 year average would be best. And because this is slanted towards smaller markets I might want to do something with a radius population instead of metro area. But for now this is what I've done.

Also, this is the bad one, the downtown area of St. Louis (unless its changed in the last 3 years) is a vibrant and wonderful downtown... when the cardinals are in town and playing. Its a freakin' ghost town when they are out of town or not playing. Without the cardinals the downtown area is even worse than it is. I know there are other cities and areas that depend on their local teams, but without the Cardinals downtown St. Louis sucks.

As for other teams, I would 100% agree with Boston. With New York it just feels like there is so much more going on but you will see so many people wearing Yankees hats anywhere you go in New York. Philly I haven't been too enough to know about and Cincinnati, does any other city have a parade on opening day? Chicago is a Bears town with baseball in 2nd. The Sox and Cubs are huge draws but nothing compares to the Bears and football in that city.

[Gothamite]

honestly Milwaukee surprised me being on top

Milwaukee is a absolutely great major-league city. They've supported the Brewers through a lot of very terrible years. And every game's a party - tailgating might not have been invented there, but you wouldn't know that for looking. Which certainly helped during those very terrible years.

[Gothamite]

Chicago is a Bears town with baseball in 2nd. The Sox and Cubs are huge draws but nothing compares to the Bears and football in that city.

I don't know if I can agree with that. Bears fandom is very real, but football support is a united front amongst the entire city, which is huge. There are tons of baseball fans, but loyalties are split, making it seem as though there's less passion.

Chicago is a great football town, but if baseball is truly second it's only by a hair.

[Breakwood]

Everyone is going to claim their city is the best...but Cleveland sold out 455 games straight, that pretty much speaks for itself.

I'd say most cities follow their teams pretty well except Toronto, Pittsburgh, and Tampa Bay...

Toronto and Pittsburgh are ahead of Cleveland in terms of attendance chief.

Did this topic say "this year" anywhere?? what about the past 18 years when pittsburgh was a terrible? They're just showing up now they because have a mediocre team, instead of a bottomfeeder

If we're using history in this discussion, who was the first city to reach 5 millions fans for a season....Yeah Toronto.

Stadium looked pretty empty the last few nights vs. the Yankees.

The bright blue seats of the Rogers Centre make anything less than a sellout look like nobody is there. The average attendance for this series was 35,000. That's basically 75% capacity, which compared to the top teams in the majors isn't much, but is very solid. Yet looking at the Rogers Centre it looks empty. Add on to that the fact that it was 35 degrees here today without the humidity (humidex made it more like 43-45 degrees) means many people would've opted to stay home or go to the Beaches. I personally was thinking of going, as I had only been to one game at the Rogers Center this year, but I could'nt get up the energy to go and sit in that heat for 3 hours. If the game was at night I would've been there no question.

But to get back to the OP's question. No Jays fans are arguing that Toronto is a big baseball city. It isn't. However there are a lot more Jays fans in this city than most people think. The Jays are gaining in popularity within the young adult (18 to 30) population. If AA is able to turn this club into a playoff contender, the Jays will once again be atop the attendance lists.

[Breakwood]

How long until the MLB fans from canada start claiming that the DBacks or Braves should move to Winnipeg?

We'll wait until Akron has a winning record in football.

[pcgd]

honestly Milwaukee surprised me being on top

Milwaukee is a absolutely great major-league city. They've supported the Brewers through a lot of very terrible years. And every game's a party - tailgating might not have been invented there, but you wouldn't know that for looking. Which certainly helped during those very terrible years.

I didn't mean insinuate I didn't think it was, I've had many great times at Miller Park in the parking lot and in the stadium. And the fans I know are very passionate about the Brewers, Bucks and Packers. I just meant I was surprised about their attendance numbers because I had gone to plenty of games a few years ago where it wasn't very hard to buy cheap seats and move down to the box seats cause there weren't too many people there.

[pcgd]

Chicago is a Bears town with baseball in 2nd. The Sox and Cubs are huge draws but nothing compares to the Bears and football in that city.

I don't know if I can agree with that. Bears fandom is very real, but football support is a united front amongst the entire city, which is huge. There are tons of baseball fans, but loyalties are split, making it seem as though there's less passion.

Chicago is a great football town, but if baseball is truly second it's only by a hair.

Well I kinda judged that by the way the city reacts to the Bears vs. either baseball team. Seems like all the baseball talk combined is pretty far behind all the football talk. You don't hear much talk about the cubs or sox in the winter but you hear about the Bears year round on the radio, in the paper, and person to person. That could be a comment on the popularity of Baseball vs. Football more than anything.

[McCall]

Chicago is a Bears town with baseball in 2nd. The Sox and Cubs are huge draws but nothing compares to the Bears and football in that city.

I don't know if I can agree with that. Bears fandom is very real, but football support is a united front amongst the entire city, which is huge. There are tons of baseball fans, but loyalties are split, making it seem as though there's less passion.

Chicago is a great football town, but if baseball is truly second it's only by a hair.

Well I kinda judged that by the way the city reacts to the Bears vs. either baseball team. Seems like all the baseball talk combined is pretty far behind all the football talk. You don't hear much talk about the cubs or sox in the winter but you hear about the Bears year round on the radio, in the paper, and person to person. That could be a comment on the popularity of Baseball vs. Football more than anything.

I've always thought of Chicago as a baseball town slightly more than the other sports, but not enough to actually DEFINE it as one. Seems like there's almost an even dispersal among the Cubs, Sox, Bears, Bulls and Blackhawks to really call put any sport so far ahead of the others to specifically call it that particular sport town.