NHL Anti-Thread: Bad Business Decision Aggregator

[OMMF]

Chris Daniels @ChrisDaniels5

BREAKING: Seattle Mayor Mike McGinn acknowledges recent discussions with NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman

BREAKING: McGinn says a Hansen rep introduced him to potential Seattle NHL investors two weeks ago.

BREAKING: NHL investors also met with Seattle City Council members.

BREAKING: McGinn “We believe we can support the NHL in Key Arena”.

[Gothamite]

What's baffling is that a city whose first sports passion is hockey and has a ready arena with a brand-spanking new one to come (Quebec) is being put behind a North American city where football, baseball, and soccer come before hockey, while an arena in said city (Seattle) isn't such a sure thing.

I never used to believe that Bettman had an illogical anti-Canada bias, but it's becoming harder and harder to avoid that conclusion.

The NHL will, at best, start as the fourth most popular sport in Seattle. They love the Mariners, Seahawks and Sounders, and I don't see how the new NHL team is going to magically leapfrog any of those.

Not to mention that the NBA might still outrank hockey in fan interest, so long as this is taken as a sign that a new Sonics might be forthcoming.

[CS85]

We all know how this story ends.

[OMMF]

there's no history of hockey support in this arena

You know how I know you aren't from here?

Granted, I've never been to Kent to watch Thunderbirds,

My sarcasm aside, I'd be happy to buy you a ticket. I think the experience is night and day. ShoWare is no peach, either but it's miles ahead of KeyArena. Having said that, there were numerous games between '95 and when the TBirds left for Kent that wouldn't have fit in any of the arenas in Western Washington. 11036 I believe was the capacity on opening night. I don't think much has changed since then. For a couple of seasons, hopefully, that doesn't seem too bad.

I think you'll end up with the same problem in Seattle as you would in numerous other cities. It would almost be a combination of Buffalo and Sunrise. When the Canucks are in town, I'm sure all those fans would come down because the tickets are cheaper, not to mention all the Vancouver fans that live here. And because the city hasn't had an NHL presence, other teams have been adopted as favorites and those allegiances die hard.

[OMMF]

They love the Mariners

Barely above 20K per game average. Love might be a strong word.

I don't like the way this is playing out, either. But I think the cries that there would be no one to attend the games are a lot of hyperbole. Hell, the Rat City Rollergirls roller derby team are the top draw at KeyArena currently. There's disposable money out there, just have to market the team right.

[rams80]

What's baffling is that a city whose first sports passion is hockey and has a ready arena with a brand-spanking new one to come (Quebec) is being put behind a North American city where football, baseball, and soccer come before hockey, while an arena in said city (Seattle) isn't such a sure thing.

I never used to believe that Bettman had an illogical anti-Canada bias, but it's becoming harder and harder to avoid that conclusion.

The NHL will, at best, start as the fourth most popular sport in Seattle. They love the Mariners, Seahawks and Sounders, and I don't see how the new NHL team is going to magically leapfrog any of those.

Not to mention that the NBA might still outrank hockey in fan interest, so long as this is taken as a sign that a new Sonics might be forthcoming.

And that's really the crux of the long term problem with this move. (Short term issue being Key Arena is a terrible place to play hockey). While Seattle is a bigger pie than Quebec, you'd be getting more pie from Quebec because you'd be getting all of it rather than the sliver of pie you get from Seattle. While I suspect the Totems could survive (not going to say "would do better than Phoenix" because Thunder Bay could likely claim that) the league is definitely leaving money on the table here.

And of course, the idea that the NHL can simply recoup the extra money through expansion is bad because, well, George III in the height of his mental illness would take one look at a possible NHL expansion and say "Dude, that's crazy."

[The_Admiral]

I don't doubt that Seattle hockey fans, for the most part (transplants will half-heartedly dip their toes in; you're not winning Hawks/Wings fans over right now) would take up the new team. I just wonder if there are enough, and if the economics of this won't be a huge drain on the league.

For whatever it's worth, I've never thought of Washington State in and of itself being a great hockey territory by dint of its WHL franchises. I always looked at it more like British Columbia and Alberta had run out of mid-sized cities to house their BRAP BRAP BRAP GOOD STRONG WESTERN CANADIAN BOYS BRAP BRAP, and so Spokane and Kennewick were expected to, if not change the way we think about hockey fandom, at least not take a steaming dump on the whole concept. I'm sure there are people in the state who like hockey, but just because it's north doesn't mean there's a hockey culture. Eastern Washington is basically just Idaho.

[OMMF]

I don't doubt that Seattle hockey fans, for the most part (transplants will half-heartedly dip their toes in; you're not winning Hawks/Wings fans over right now) would take up the new team. I just wonder if there are enough, and if the economics of this won't be a huge drain on the league.

For whatever it's worth, I've never thought of Washington State in and of itself being a great hockey territory by dint of its WHL franchises. I always looked at it more like British Columbia and Alberta had run out of mid-sized cities to house their BRAP BRAP BRAP GOOD STRONG WESTERN CANADIAN BOYS BRAP BRAP, and so Spokane and Kennewick were expected to, if not change the way we think about hockey fandom, at least not take a steaming dump on the whole concept. I'm sure there are people in the state who like hockey, but just because it's north doesn't mean there's a hockey culture. Eastern Washington is basically just Idaho.

Spokane is consistently in the top 10 of the CHL for average attendance. Sure, some of that is a byproduct of having a larger arena than most of the CHL but they are also filling those seats up.

Again, not trying to sell people on the Coyotes succeeding amazingly up here. I just think there is more of an appeal than people think there is.

[IceCap]

The main problem I see is a lack of an arena. The Seattle people have said they can make NHL hockey work in Key Arena. No. You can't. It may not even have ice.

At best it's a stopgap solution until a new arena is built, and all indications are that the arena is only going to get built if the NBA returns, which it may someday. Maybe. It's very possible that QC may have their new rink up and running while the Seattle Coyotes are still playing in the crappiest rink in the league waiting for the Sonics to come back. Which would, incidentally, knock NHL hockey even further down the city's sports hierarchy.

[OMMF]

Not comparing the situations, but could someone tell me what the plan was in Tampa when the Lightning got a team? They played their inaugural season at Expo Hall which was poorly set up for hockey and too small. Then they moved to the Thunderdome for 3 seasons which was way too big. During those 4 years, were there plans for the Tampa Bay Times Forum in place? Why three years in a baseball stadium?

Ottawa's situation wasn't much better. 3+ years in the Civic Centre.

I certainly wouldn't want Seattle to replicate either of those situations.

Is there anything short of a willing investor keeping teams out of Kansas City? It would be a race to be the main tenant but once you got there, you would be set.

[HedleyLamarr]

He does have plenty of faults, but I doubt Bettman would allow a move to Seattle unless all parties involved are sure that the Key Arena can make ice.

I haven't seen their calendar, but as long as there was a few days to a week of no events, that's plenty of time to test out the ice-making capabilities as well as all the particulars that go into keeping/maintaining ice and an NHL-quality climate in the arena. For all we know, the NHL could have been testing these various conditions days/weeks/months ago......

[dfwabel]

Not comparing the situations, but could someone tell me what the plan was in Tampa when the Lightning got a team? They played their inaugural season at Expo Hall which was poorly set up for hockey and too small. Then they moved to the Thunderdome for 3 seasons which was way too big. During those 4 years, were there plans for the Tampa Bay Times Forum in place? Why three years in a baseball stadium?

Ottawa's situation wasn't much better. 3+ years in the Civic Centre.

I certainly wouldn't want Seattle to replicate either of those situations.

Is there anything short of a willing investor keeping teams out of Kansas City? It would be a race to be the main tenant but once you got there, you would be set.

Originally, Tampa Bay (aka Phil Esposito) sold the NHL on an privately financed arena called the Tampa Coliseum, which was to sit on land which now Raymond James stadium sits on. They even had a groundbreaking ceremony six months before the team played their first game. I was at the ceremony with my Dad in March 1991. The team signed a 30 year lease with the arena developer.

The Expo Hall was only going to be temporary because they tried to sell people on the idea of the Tampa Coliseum but the developers never got financing and ended up suing the team. All TCI got was the fact that Marc Ganis is now looked at as a "sports business expert".

As for KC, what would the local TV be since that is where teams stay out of revenue sharing? The team would be fighting with KU hoops (Lawrence is only an hour away), Missouri hoops (2 hours away)

[Evil G]

Not to mention that the NBA might still outrank hockey in fan interest, so long as this is taken as a sign that a new Sonics might be forthcoming.

It probably does. It might even outrank the Mariners.

[Corvus]

We all know how this story ends.

With the Coyotes in Sacremento?

[cmm]

Good news. Seattle says they have an ice-o-matic. Though they don't have many seats if this is correct.

The team would have to play at Key Arena, which would only seat roughly 11,000 for hockey. Daly has indicated in the past that it would be a suitable short term home for a franchise.

Deborah Daoust, a spokesperson for Seattle Center and Key Arena, said Tuesday night that the ice making equipment and chilling system are still operational and have been used in the past for events like the Ice Capades and Disney on Ice.

http://www.king5.com...-211315311.html

[njmeadowlanders]

Not that they'd ever be more popular than any existing team or a potential Sonics 2.0, but isn't it fair to say as nuts as Seattle's fans are about the teams they already have that they couldn't muster up at least some sort of following from scratch? Instant geographic rivalry with Vancouver, the only winter sport in town (at least for now), and all that?

I'm not saying it WILL happen but COULDN'T it happen to some degree?

[rams80]

Good news. Seattle says they have an ice-o-matic. Though they don't have many seats if this is correct.

The team would have to play at Key Arena, which would only seat roughly 11,000 for hockey. Daly has indicated in the past that it would be a suitable short term home for a franchise.

Deborah Daoust, a spokesperson for Seattle Center and Key Arena, said Tuesday night that the ice making equipment and chilling system are still operational and have been used in the past for events like the Ice Capades and Disney on Ice.

http://www.king5.com...-211315311.html

At least it will be an honest 11,000.

[Evil G]

All that really matters is if the Coyotes get out of Glendale.

[dfwabel]

All that really matters is if the Coyotes get out of Glendale.

if?

[Evil G]

We're dealing with Gary Bettman here. Nothing is guaranteed.