NHL Anti-Thread: Bad Business Decision Aggregator

[zpqmaowl]

What happens after, do we start on another team and speculate about their landing spots. Either way this forum will be a lonely place without talk of the Coyotes moving.

Well, WMVP is reporting that Rocky says the Blackhawks aren't turning a profit...

[tigerslionspistonshabs]

What exactly is wrong with Quebec City?

(Quebec City) would be the smallest market in North American pro sports

Ahem...

Quebec (Lévis) : 765,706

Green Bay Metro Area: 311,098

Source: www.citypopulation.de

*I realize that the Packers have all of Wisconsin (6 million) behind them, but the Quebec City NHL team would have half of Quebec Province (and probably a sizeable portion of the Maritimes) on its side. That's at least 4 million potential viewers, which is enough of a market for an NHL team. Yes, there is the issue of exchange rates and corporate sponsorship, blah, blah - but most of the profitable teams in the NHL are north of the Canada-US border.

Exactly. A city/region of a million people where 75% of the population cares about hockey, is much more valuable than a city/region of 3 million where 5% of the population cares about hockey.

[CS85]

What happens after, do we start on another team and speculate about their landing spots. Either way this forum will be a lonely place without talk of the Coyotes moving.

Well, WMVP is reporting that Rocky says the Blackhawks aren't turning a profit...

I'm not Mr. Numbers, but isn't that in part to revenue sharing with money pits like Florida, Phoenix, etc?

[dfwabel]

What happens after, do we start on another team and speculate about their landing spots. Either way this forum will be a lonely place without talk of the Coyotes moving.

Well, WMVP is reporting that Rocky says the Blackhawks aren't turning a profit...

I'm not Mr. Numbers, but isn't that in part to revenue sharing with money pits like Florida, Phoenix, etc?

Possibly. But even in a 2010 interview after winning the Cup, he talked about being lean on cash numerous times that season.

The Blackhawks ended their season with capacity attendance and record merchandise sales, television ratings and sponsorship revenues, and the Stanley Cup.

But financially the team was a loser.

Exactly how much money was lost is something team executives will not discuss. One consequence: Season ticket prices will increase by an average of 20 percent this fall, which is projected to rocket them from the second-cheapest in the National Hockey League three seasons ago to among the 10 most expensive, according to the team. And fans should expect "more modest" increases in the future, team owner Rocky Wirtz said.

Wirtz first revealed that the team was not profitable in private. "It's going to take four (or) five years before we can actually get back in the black," Wirtz said at an April 19 forum at the Economic Club of Chicago, according to a transcript. "And right now we're still supporting the Blackhawks with our other Wirtz organizations."

In a follow-up interview this week, Wirtz said that the Blackhawks ran out of cash several times last season. Each time, he received a memo, known as an internal capital call, in which the team requested money from Wirtz Corp., the Blackhawks' parent company, to cover operating expenses. And at the end of the season, Wirtz said he double-checked that the playoffs did not cover those losses; the franchise remained in the red, the team's accountant told him.

[CS85]

In turn I will irrationally blame Cristobal Huet and Rusty Olesz.

[dbadefense1990]

What exactly is wrong with Quebec City?

It's a Candian city.

Yeah, now I'm starting to believe all the "Bettman hates Canada" conspiracy theories.

[dbadefense1990]

What exactly is wrong with Quebec City?

(Quebec City) would be the smallest market in North American pro sports

Ahem...

Quebec (Lévis) : 765,706

Green Bay Metro Area: 311,098

Source: www.citypopulation.de

*I realize that the Packers have all of Wisconsin (6 million) behind them, but the Quebec City NHL team would have half of Quebec Province (and probably a sizeable portion of the Maritimes) on its side. That's at least 4 million potential viewers, which is enough of a market for an NHL team. Yes, there is the issue of exchange rates and corporate sponsorship, blah, blah - but most of the profitable teams in the NHL are north of the Canada-US border.

Exactly. A city/region of a million people where 75% of the population cares about hockey, is much more valuable than a city/region of 3 million where 5% of the population cares about hockey.

Another case of where "playing the percentages" overcedes raw numbers.

In a city of 1 million, the Quebec City NHL team would be cared by 1 million people.

In a city of 3 million, the Seattle NHL team would be cared by 150,000 people. The other 95% would be split by the Seahawks (25%), Sounders (25%), Mariners (10%) and Sonics* (35%).

*Seattle is a basketball-first city, and despite losing the Sonics to Oklahoma City 5 years ago, they still have the largest sports-attention draw in the city

[Sodboy13]

If you believe the Blackhawks, the mighty, sold-out-five-years-straight Blackhawks, are actually losing as much as the Phoenix Coyotes every season, I've got a great business proposal to offer you. Cash only.

Rocky's pushing paper and crying poor to justify ticket hikes, and he's posturing as Rahm tries to build a competing, taxpayer-funded arena in the Sloop. Either that, or he's a worse businessman than his dad. You tell me which is more likely.

[troy_3223]

Another case of where "playing the percentages" overcedes raw numbers.

In a city of 1 million, the Quebec City NHL team would be cared by 1 million people.

In a city of 3 million, the Seattle NHL team would be cared by 150,000 people. The other 95% would be split by the Seahawks (25%), Sounders (25%), Mariners (10%) and Sonics* (35%).

*Seattle is a basketball-first city, and despite losing the Sonics to Oklahoma City 5 years ago, they still have the largest sports-attention draw in the city

This seems to be based on an erroneous assumption that people only care about one sport, which is ridiculous. I'm not going to argue that the NHL will outdraw the Sounders or the Seahawks, but I would have to assume there would be some overlap.

I'm not sure why the NHL believes Seattle is a better destination than Quebec. But if the definition of success is that the Seattle team outdraws the current iteration of the Phoenix Coyotes, it could easily be a success, even in Key Arena.

However, five or six years down the road, this thread will likely be re-opened. Likely landing spots for a failed Seattle NHL franchise will include Atlanta, Phoenix, and Kansas City. People will be arguing that Phoenix and Atlanta would be preferable to Kansas City because of their "rich hockey histories".

[DaRadniz29]

I know the NHL wants to keep realignment in tact, but I would view Key Arena as a last resort move. I guess it would depend on the number of season there and how much revenue loss would accrue in the time from the first game to the team moving to their new arena. I also wonder if there's a Plan C and what that might be/entail.

Any word on when we will know who's staying/going? I know some vote was to take place next week, but Bettman wanted it sooner, but that's the last I've heard of it.

I think the key dates are the Glendale City Council meeting on June 25 and the NHL Board of Governors meeting on June 27. I haven't heard about any earlier votes on the lease.

Thanks. Just was wondering when and if at all the saga that is the Phoenix Coyotes will come to end.

[RichardWitham]

I think I have stated the Seattle Roast billions of times already. It would be an awesome tribute to the coffee industry, and I love Seattle coffee (specifically Starbucks).

seriously. stop posting and lurk more

[dbadefense1990]

Another case of where "playing the percentages" overcedes raw numbers.

In a city of 1 million, the Quebec City NHL team would be cared by 1 million people.

In a city of 3 million, the Seattle NHL team would be cared by 150,000 people. The other 95% would be split by the Seahawks (25%), Sounders (25%), Mariners (10%) and Sonics* (35%).

*Seattle is a basketball-first city, and despite losing the Sonics to Oklahoma City 5 years ago, they still have the largest sports-attention draw in the city

This seems to be based on an erroneous assumption that people only care about one sport, which is ridiculous.

True and (somewhat) false. Based on the people I've met who align themselves with Seattle sports, on seeing TV reports from news shows and sports-related media on YouTube, and on other sports blogs and forums I've read articles on, these are my rough estimations of what percentage of their pro teams people in the Northwest tend to show the greatest interest towards.

Given the saga of the whole Sonics relocation and their (failed) efforts of acquiring the Sac Kings, I tend to believe Seattle is a basketball city (also helps that their only pro championship was won by their 1979 NBA team). There is so much anger and hostility those people have towards Stern, Bennett and Schultz for their treatment of their NBA team, that anything they do gets the attention of the local media and the people running the whole "Sonicsgate" campaign.

The Seahawks are picking up steam with Pete Carroll and Russell Wilson running the show, while the Sounders have opened up the Northwest region as a very viable one for MLS and all of North American soccer (also the fact that the Sounders picked up casual fans distraught by the Sonics relocation in mid-2008 when their team was promoted to MLS status for the 2009 season). So they both have the next share of interest. The Mariners (as Kramerica or whoever else pointed it out) have been mostly an abyss for their franchise, who are the remaining AL franchise to have never won their pennant,* so they get the last share of attention.

But the whole "people only caring about one team in multi-team cities" does have some validity. For example:

-Detroit has four teams, yet it relies on the Red Wings first and foremost for success (although the Tigers come in a close 2nd).

-Los Angeles is a Lakers/Clippers town; even with the Kings/Ducks and Angels/Dodgers, the talk of this city (especially of the media) is all related to basketball, from the absurd trade "proposals," to the drama off the court between the players, to the even-more ridiculous comparisons to legendary players (Kobe vs. Jordan/LeBron/Magic/Bird).

-Dallas' allegiance is with the Cowboys first, followed by the declining Mavs, the Rangers and the scrappy Stars seeking attention.

-In Miami, LeBron has transformed that city into an NBA city. All the sucking the Dolphins have done has alienated those customers, there's the screw job Loria has done with the Marlins, and who in Miami pays attention to the NHL's Panthers on a nightly basis?

*I don't count the Astros in this factoid, since this is their first year in the American League. But even so, they do have a 2005 NL pennant, which means they have one more league championship flag than the Mariners

[HedleyLamarr]

Detroit might depend on the Red Wings for 'success' (despite the Tigers playing in two recent World Series, the Lions making the playoffs a couple year ago, and the Pistons having won an NBA title in the last decade), Detroit is first and foremost a football town. The Lions and college football are king there.

[CubsFanBudMan]

People can stop worrying about this thread. This isn't even the original. That became the "celebrate Winnipeg" thread.

And just because they move doesn't mean Seattle won't be viewed as a stopgap unless the NBA expands. Key might not be a long-term fix, but it speaks to what the NHL is becoming.

If you abandon a facility built for hockey to play in NBA leftovers that are even worse for the NHL.... no one's building an arena for the NHL anytime soon. In America, anyway. Seattle has said as much. The Islanders couldn't get one, so they're headed to a modern Key.

Glendale, Sunrise, Nashville, Columbus. Any of those last 3 next on your lists by any chance?

[nash61]

Perhaps the NHL is saving Quebec for the Devils?

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=425724

[dbadefense1990]

Detroit might depend on the Red Wings for 'success' (despite the Tigers playing in two recent World Series, the Lions making the playoffs a couple year ago, and the Pistons having won an NBA title in the last decade), Detroit is first and foremost a football town. The Lions and college football are king there.

In the case of Detroit, I tend to look at trends to when their teams (or any other team in any other city) suck. If the Red Wings enter a slump for the next couple of years, they'll still be drawing people into the Joe, and still have Red Wing fans drawing the turnstiles at other cities. If the Pistons proceed to a period of sucking and rebuilding (which they are in right now), you'll barely see people at the Palace, and they'll likely end up as a side story on the sports pages (also doesn't help that a drive to-and-from downtown Detroit and Auburn Hills is usually a one hour commitment).

The Lions are the team up there I know the least about; I'd figure that after all the crappy years fans have endured (Eric Andolsek getting killed while mowing his lawn, Coach Mornhinweg deferring the ball and losing on their opponents' 1st possession in overtime, only one NFC title game appearance in 1992, Barry Sanders retiring early, 0-18), their fanbase would be minimal at best, that the majority of fans they've picked up the last couple of years are "Megatron" fans who are seeing him help the Lions be a winnable team right now.

[BigBubba]

I think Major League Baseball would have something to say about that...

Call it a trade for the Colorado Rockies.

It's simple...

NHL gets the Rockies, the NBA gets the Avalanche, the Jazz move to NOLA to become the Hornets 3.0, while Hornets 1.0 and 2.0 merge with the Coyotes and play in their own league.

[rams80]

Perhaps the NHL is saving Quebec for the Devils?

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=425724

AHAHAHAHAHA That's amazing.

Seriously, though, that would certainly finish off any hope of an NHL team getting its own arena for the next couple of decades.

[JayMac]

Perhaps the NHL is saving Quebec for the Devils?

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=425724

Just my opinion but I think the Devils will stay put in North Jersey. I still feel like the team that will move to Quebec are the Panthers. How that team has survived as long as they have in South Florida is beyond me.

[Viper]

Perhaps the NHL is saving Quebec for the Devils?

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=425724

Just my opinion but I think the Devils will stay put in North Jersey. I still feel like the team that will move to Quebec are the Panthers. How that team has survived as long as they have in South Florida is beyond me.

Better yet, they could take the Devils franchise full-circle by moving them back to Kansas City. (This would have the added bonus of enabling the conferences to be re-balanced at 15 teams apiece.)