Should Pete Rose be Reinstated into Baseball?

[NJTank]

That's not Pete's personality

[Gothamite]

That's not Pete's personality

So in other words, nothing. He hasn't done a single thing to earn the second chance you're so valiantly (if vainly) trying to argue for him.

Because honesty is "not Pete's personality"? Contrition is "not Pete's personality"? Basic human decency is "not Pete's personality"?

So why on Earth do you think this scumbag deserves a second chance? Why should we let him off the hook now? When we say you haven't formed a cogent argument, it's because simple questions like these have only been ignored.

[NJTank]

So if Pete cried you would forgive him?

[Gothamite]

So if Pete cried you would forgive him?

Nice strawman.

Whether he cries or not wouldn't come into it, nor is it up to me to forgive him.

If he had told the truth about what he did, then I personally would have favored lifting his punishment. Instead, he lied and lied and lied and smeared honest people in the process. And I'm really stunned that you, as a self-described conservative, don't hold him to any standard of personal responsibility.

[TheOldRoman]

Admiral with a huuuge stretch there, and it's pretty much gone down hill since then. I don't have my finger on the pulse of the entire internet, but I haven't seen a substantial outcry from anybody other than Tank to reinstate Rose. I haven't seen any conservative sites arguing in favor of him. It seems like a strawman.

So, lots of people in Cincinnati want him reinstated. That's understandable. Spoiler: sports don't really matter and people are biased sometimes. But when it's a guy from Cincy, there's lots of tantrums and talk of how they only support him because of how backwards they are. Well, there wasn't the same screaming about backwoods hillbilly tea-tards when San Francisco was so strongly backing Barry Bonds. And either way, it's sports and it's far less upsetting than the nuts who wanted to #freeJahar just because of a Rolling Stone jack-off cover of him.

[NJTank]

Bonds should be in the HOF too.

[The_Admiral]

So if Pete cried you would forgive him?

Nice strawman.

Whether he cries or not wouldn't come into it, nor is it up to me to forgive him.

If he had told the truth about what he did, then I personally would have favored lifting his punishment. Instead, he lied and lied and lied and smeared honest people in the process. And I'm really stunned that you, as a self-described conservative, don't hold him to any standard of personal responsibility.

I'm with you on this. I supported reinstating Rose for years because I thought he had come clean about his involvement. When it turned out he hadn't, I felt like an idiot. People generally don't like being made to feel like idiots because of someone's lies. I've come to the conclusion that he's not getting in until he's dead or everyone who ever felt loyal to Bart Giamatti is dead.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

Bonds should be in the HOF too.

I agree with you here. I stated way up thread that my understanding of Bonds' sins is they weren't officially outlawed by MLB. I remember a lot of confusion over just what the MLB's PED policy was or wasn't through the longball years.

[Sport]

Even Law and Order guys believe in second chances.

He's had many second chances already and has failed at every opportunity to do the right thing.

[The_Admiral]

Bonds should be in the HOF too.

I agree with you here. I stated way up thread that my understanding of Bonds' sins is they weren't officially outlawed by MLB. I remember a lot of confusion over just what the MLB's PED policy was or wasn't through the longball years.

I remember people arguing that the federal laws against those substances superseded whatever MLB's policy was or wasn't. As with Rose, I'm fine with acknowledging the factual nature of the accomplishments without enshrining the person who accomplished them.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

It's coming back to me. I'm a class warrior always looking for a man to fight, so my argument then (and I guess it still is now) was that MLB profited handsomely from McGwire, Sosa and Bonds, so it doesn't seem fair to tut-tut them after the bottom fell out. Everyone "knew" something was up those guys, but we deluded ourselves otherwise because baseball was fun again.

MLB and BBWA had an opportunity to morality police the PED guys in the moment, but did their best not to. It seems lame to keep those guys out of the HOF when the same people excluding them now were intentionally asleep then.

[Mac the Knife]

Even Law and Order guys believe in second chances.

That depends entirely on the offense committed. Rose could have done virtually anything else and ultimately received a pass: domestic abuse, weapons charges, having intimate relations in public with a horse... anything but gambling on baseball or throwing games. Those actions (and no, I don't accuse the latter) strike at the very integrity of the game, something that's absolutely essential to maintain its viability both as a sport and as entertainment.

Bonds should be in the HOF too.

No, he shouldn't. He forfeited that entitlement the minute he began violating drug laws for the purpose of enhancing his ability to play. It's one thing to be a Steve Howe and **** up your life with cocaine; I've never heard a case where someone thought of it as a performance enhancer. It's another to juice up on illegally obtained anabolic steroids.

[bosrs1]

Even Law and Order guys believe in second chances.

He's had many second chances already and has failed at every opportunity to do the right thing.

Exactly. Even if you believe in second chances, Rose is on chance 5 or 6 now. He's out of chances even by the most liberal forgiveness strategy.

[BBTV]

Who are the "worst guys" in the hall?

[HedleyLamarr]

Even Law and Order guys believe in second chances.

That depends entirely on the offense committed. Rose could have done virtually anything else and ultimately received a pass: domestic abuse, weapons charges, having intimate relations in public with a horse... anything but gambling on baseball or throwing games. Those actions (and no, I don't accuse the latter) strike at the very integrity of the game, something that's absolutely essential to maintain its viability both as a sport and as entertainment.

Bonds should be in the HOF too.

No, he shouldn't. He forfeited that entitlement the minute he began violating drug laws for the purpose of enhancing his ability to play. It's one thing to be a Steve Howe and **** up your life with cocaine; I've never heard a case where someone thought of it as a performance enhancer. It's another to juice up on illegally obtained anabolic steroids.

Where do we draw the line on guys not being Hall-worthy because of things being illegal? Driving while your blood-alcohol level is above a certain point is illegal, too. Pretty sure there's guys in the Hall that have gotten DUI's at some point.

As long as you're not causing doubt into the legitimacy of the game or breaking the sport's rules, I do believe you can be an idiot and still be Hall-worthy. And it's not like Bonds had an advantage....the pitchers were roided up, too. It was an even playing field.

[IceCap]

The defence of Bonds moved seamlessly from "it's not steroids, he has great hand-eye coordination" to "the pitchers were juiced too!"

It's very impressive.

And Bonds' actions affecting the integrity of the game are exactly why he's not getting into the Hall. Same story as Rose, when you get right down to it.

[CubsFanBudMan]

Bonds should be in the HOF too.

I agree with you here. I stated way up thread that my understanding of Bonds' sins is they weren't officially outlawed by MLB. I remember a lot of confusion over just what the MLB's PED policy was or wasn't through the longball years.

I remember people arguing that the federal laws against those substances superseded whatever MLB's policy was or wasn't. As with Rose, I'm fine with acknowledging the factual nature of the accomplishments without enshrining the person who accomplished them.

This was my feeling at the time. You don't need MLB rules expressing that they are illegal because they are *illegal*.

Although that giant TLDR; print at the bottom of that clubhouse memo...

DO NOT ASSAULT UMPIRES

... kind of damages that argument. Is there a rule that states not to kill people with baseball bats?

[HedleyLamarr]

I've long-contended that there were many factors into why Bonds and everyone else were hitting so many homeruns:

- Watered-down pitching due to expansion. 60-70 pitchers that were not MLB-ready were in the league. Took about 15 years for pitching to catch up.

- Smaller ballparks. Philadelphia and Cincinnati became hitter havens. Factor in Coors Field and Arizona's elevation-aided parks as well. Even New Yankee Stadium is a better hitter's park than the previous stadium.

- Tighter-wound baseballs.

- Seemingly unlimited amount of batting armor that lead to no fear of the inside pitch. Bonds looked like the Tin Man at the plate.

- Little-to-no shaming in striking out, as well as managerial strategies of waiting/relying on the 3-run homer. It wasn't discouraged to still swing for the fences on 2-strike counts.

Did steroids and PED's help? Sure. But it's not the be-all answer to the hitting explosion. And as DG noted, MLB didn't discourage players from getting assistance...they probably even encouraged players. "Chicks dig the long ball!"....remember that?

That's why I feel that Bonds should be in...he was just part of what MLB was wanting to get out of their post-strike blues. He was playing within their rules and their wishes.

[2001mark]

MLB 'profited' from the steroid era, until they didn't.

No other pro sports league had its individuals called to testify in front of a congressional hearing on the subject. Meanwhile NFL guys are taking 4wk vacations for the same thing or worse.

Remember, MLB was dealt with the Lance Armstrong treatment, only every single day & waking news cycle without end.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that MLB didn't get a high from the era, I'm just saying they weren't off scott free either.

Which is probably why Bud didn't sleep until A-Rod got his.

As for Bonds hitting off juiced pitchers, those guys aren't going into the HOF either.

[IceCap]

That's why I feel that Bonds should be in...he was just part of what MLB was wanting to get out of their post-strike blues. He was playing within their rules and their wishes.

It still tainted the integrity of the game. It just so happens that the owners were along for the ride.

It's also worth noting that MLB's rules regarding PEDs, informal or otherwise at the time, never superseded the laws of the state. Baseball didn't ban them from the game because they were already illegal.

Did other factors related to his skill factor into his numbers? Sure. To what extent though? To what extent were his accomplishments the result of skill and circumstance? We can't know, and we can't know because he chose to take illegal supplements to gain a competitive advantage. This, like Rose's gambling, brings the game's integrity into doubt. Which is why both need to be kept away from the Hall.

It's really that simple, in my opinion.

While I appreciate the sentiment I don't think you can really apply class conflict theory to a millionaire cheating in a game played by other millionaires, all in an effort to line the pockets of billionaires. Looking for "the man" is just an exercise to futility by that point. Everyone involved is rich and scummy.