SFGiants58

MLB: The Defunct Saga - Montréal Expos Pt. II B Added ("M-Fleur-de-Lis")

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Posted (edited)
On 1/2/2019 at 10:10 AM, coco1997 said:

The new cap logo is a HUGE improvement. Adding the Pirates/Giants serifs is just what it needed.

 

Can't wait to see the Tampa Bay Giants next!

 

Thank you! I’m glad to see that it works. Also, a pre-emptive thank you for helping me out with the Tampa Bay Giants!

 

On 1/2/2019 at 6:12 PM, Dalcowboyfan92 said:

Would San Jose work as a major league baseball town? I mean, you'd have a strong Giants fanbase there, being not too far from San Francisco and all, but it feels a little weird to me.

 

I believe that it could have maybe worked as a new home for the Giants in the 1990s (either the Santa Clara or San José options). Of course, all the logistical difficulties faced by Levi’s Stadium would still be there, and the team would run the serious risk of alienating large sections of the fan base (what with the team being further away). Going through with the San José move and San José Giants branding would have been additionally alienating. I don’t think it would have been “Brooklyn Dodgers move to Shea Stadium, become New York Dodgers” levels of turning away fans, but it wouldn’t have been pretty.

 

These same criticisms apply to what would happen if the A’s had moved to San José. Of course, with the inroads that the Giants have tried to make in the market, I don’t see it being a good idea.

 

The Giants-Dodgers rivalry would have survived the move, which is more than I can say for Minnesota, Toronto, and Tampa Bay. 

 

On 1/2/2019 at 6:28 PM, Whittier S said:

And one of their all-time greats was Japanese.

 

Ichiro Suzuki probably wouldn’t have signed with Seattle without the Nintendo deal laying the groundwork.

 

On 1/2/2019 at 6:33 PM, Raptorman415 said:

The San Francisco Giants of San Jose baby!!!

 

On 1/3/2019 at 3:09 PM, Dalcowboyfan92 said:

 

The San Francisco Giants of San Jose Bay Area. Move over, Anaheim! We have a new competitor in town!

 

On 1/3/2019 at 3:34 PM, IndianapolisCubs2009 said:

If the A’s move out they’ll have to rename the team the San Francisco-Oakland Giants of San Jose.

 

That was basically the third stadium referendum’s goal: the Giants move to a stadium that was literally on Levi’s Stadium’s site, retaining the San Francisco identifier. Much like Levi’s Stadium, it would have been a stupid idea.

 

I’ve got some bonus material today!

 

SEATTLE MARINERS - Opening a new age

 

The Seattle Mariners, following their sale to The Baseball Club of Seattle, decides to honor the occasion with “Opening Night II.” The team honored the occasion by donning a “Seattle” wordmark on their home uniforms.  Here is a game-worn sample.1

 

1992-home-seattle2.jpg 1992-home-seattle3.jpg

64rInOU.jpg

 

This wordmark, thus far, has never been digitized. Well, time to fix that!

 

kNjdkMS.png

 

I’ve also mocked it up on their road grey uniforms (what the 1987-92 uniforms should have been, IMHO):

 

wP493jG.png

 

The wordmarks and cap logo still look like garbage (second only to the 1981-86 trash), but at least the entirety of the garbage is now digitized! As @TruColor can attest, MLB Properties took their sweet time in digitizing the 1987-92 identity for the Cooperstown Collection. I’m just trying to finish the project. 😉

 

Also, thank you @andrewharrington for pointing me in the right direction for the font (Clarendon Condensed with modifications). It worked perfectly!

 

The Tampa Bay Giants, in two variants (and some recreations), will be coming soon!

 

1 “Tino Martinez 1992 Near Rookie Seattle Mariners Signed Game Used Home Jersey - PSA/DNA Certified - MLB Game Used Jerseys at Amazon’s Sports Collectibles Store,” accessed January 5, 2019, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LI1CFBQ/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_nN.lCb7AFAJ6J; William F. Henderson, Game Worn Guide to MLB Jerseys: (1970–2017), Eighth (Philadelphia, PA: Aardvark Publishing, 2017), 1659; Brian S., “1992 Mariners – THE Jersey Archive,” accessed January 5, 2019, http://thejerseyarchive.com/mariners-archive/1992-mariners/. 

 

Edited by SFGiants58
Fixed images/added citations

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On 10/11/2018 at 4:17 PM, SFGiants58 said:

WASHINGTON NATIONALS (former San Diego Padres) - National Fatherhood

 

This one was a bit of a rabbit hole to climb down, but it produced some fascinating results. It's been widely reported that the San Diego Padres almost moved to DC in the 1973-74 offseason. Owner C. Arnholt Smith was looking to sell the team due to financial struggles and in anticipation of the IRS charging him for tax fraud. Joseph Danzansky, President of Giant Foods, made an offer to buy the Padres for $12 million and move them to DC. The move was nearly successful, with the NL unanimously approving it and Topps designing their 1974 set with it in mind:

 

1974-topps-willie-mccovey.jpg

 

The team even developed a road uniform that fit with the stylistic conventions of the early/mid-1970s while also replacing the brown & yellow banana set with a traditional navy & red:1

 

wash2edita.jpg wash1edita.jpg

 

However, it was not meant to be, as the team would have to pay off the hefty amount of money left on their San Diego Stadium lease (15 years' worth).2 Couple that with an $84 million lawsuit from the city for breaking the said lease, and you've got a problem. The sale fell through, which allowed Ray "The Founder" Kroc to buy the Padres and keep them in San Diego. However, what if the relocation went through and Washington got a new team? How would their appearance change as they chased trends and updated their look upon moving to the Navy Yard Stadium?

 

Going off of this Washington Post article from 2016, I figured that the most likely name for the team would have been "Nationals."3 I could only find one source for the "Stars" name that's been often reported by historians (based on a guess made by Ebbets Field Flannels' Jerry Cohen).4 Danzansky's son and Peter Bavasi cited the "Nationals" name as the leading candidate, so it seemed the best idea and more distinct than "Stars." Their colors would still be navy & red, and unlike the modern Padres, navy & red wouldn't be an issue.

 

The basic structure of this design is that of the 2004-2011 San Diego Padres. with a few cues from the 2005-2010 Nationals thrown in. Drop shadow would only appear on white and grey backgrounds, with navy backgrounds featuring basic outlines (and some allusions to the shadow split in the star/letter design). The Astros' 2013-present block font is the base, as a modern block style that fits with the prototype and the modernish font I call Petcopark.ttf. The primary logo uses a home plate backing (Padres) with a new take on the three-star pattern of the DC flag. The secondary is my modernization/de-North Starized version of the prototype cap logo, while the tertiary is an update of a supposed Sen(ationals)itors design.

 

ga8566G.png

 

The uniforms borrow from the Padres' 2004-2011 set, with some adaptations for navy/red. A cursive script is on the home uniform, complete with an inverted tail. I used the 2005-2009 Nats' arching pattern on the road uniform, which is my way of mimicking the bowtie wordmark. The numbers are double outlined block standard, a la the 1991-2003 Padres. I added a sock stripe pattern meant to mimic the asymmetrical pattern on the sleeves and pants (no red/navy touching).

 

Ta42dQk.png

 

The navy alternate sheds the drop shadow and adds the tertiary patch, akin to the Padres' old navy alt. A fauxback to the 1974 uniforms is the second alt, with an appropriate cap and an adjustment to the sleeve patch. I based the script off of the 1974-77 home look, which fits well with the "cursive/fancy at home, block on road" pattern used by the Padres throughout their history.

 

Ny1yWen.png

 

The primary dugout jacket features the cap logo on the front and the primary on the back (with the tertiary on the sleeve), while the fauxback utilizes the prototype's "Washington" wordmark.

 

cUSakBW.png GZ2MKgi.png

 

It was surprising how well the Padres' formula worked for the Nats. While I would never want the current team to adopt anything that resembled this set, I liked dissecting the 2004-2011 Padres' identity and figuring out what made it work. C+C is appreciated, as always!

 

Up next, a funny little twist!

 

Author's Note: When we say we want the Padres to bring back brown & yellow, the 1972-73 banana peels aren't an option.

Credit to @bosrs1 in this CCSLC thread about the Washington Padres.

3 Jake Russell, “San Diego Padres Were Once so Close to Moving to D.C. They Had Uniforms and Everything - The Washington Post,” The Washington Post - D.C. Sports Bog, June 16, 2016, https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2016/06/16/the-time-the-san-diego-padres-were-this-close-to-moving-to-d-c/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.12b3e5479833.

Jerry Cohen, “The Washington Padres? – RULE 19 BLOG,” Rule 19 Blog - Ebbets Field Flannels, accessed October 11, 2018, http://web.archive.org/web/20150309095357/http://www.rule19blog.com:80/?p=31.

 

The Padres weren’t the only team that teased relocation to the DC/Northern Virginia market. The Astros were also close to moving here until a referendum barely squeaked by to build The Ballpark at Union Station (now Minute Maid Park)

 

While the article states Washington Astros, it was rumored the team name Collins had chosen was the Virginia Fury. 

 

Also, didn’t see it on the list but another relocation that almost happened was the Giants to Tampa Bay in the early 90’s. 

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjr_Pj7ldffAhUDX60KHSYxBxYQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fnews%2Fdc-sports-bog%2Fwp%2F2017%2F11%2F02%2Fthe-washington-astros-relocating-to-d-c-was-on-the-table-in-1995%2F&psig=AOvVaw2CmhHSdf_FjsheSd7EERvP&ust=1546795919721667

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I always thought that was an underrated look for the Mariners. Nice job!

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Posted (edited)

TAMPA BAY GIANTS – A giant misstep averted

 

Tampa Bay Sweepstakes Introduction

 

This Tampa Bay Sweepstakes entry is a doozy. It’ll be a little different from previous entries, as we have prototypes and a more complex story. Also, as a Giants fan, I have a bit more to say. Prepare for the longest post yet in this thread, with oodles of information!

 

After the San José failure in June 1992, Giants owner Bob Lurie put the team up for sale, announcing that he would consider both local and outside offers. Also, Commissioner Fay Vincent cleared the team to explore “relocation options” (but not to relocate). When no local bids immediately came, Lurie sent out team vice president Corey Busch to investigate relocation cities. Busch, of course, encountered Rick Dodge and Jack Critchfield.1

 

Both Dodge and Critchfield were ready for Lurie. They had assembled an ownership group, led by Vince Naimoli, Vincent Piazza (father of Mike Piazza), and Vincent Tirendi. After impressing Busch in early July 1992, Lurie opened negotiations. On August 6, the Naimoli group flew to San Francisco to make a deal. They reached an agreement in principle to buy the team for $115 million (with a $10 million loan from Lurie). With a jubilant press conference in St. Petersburg the following day and several months of promoting the market, it seemed like Tampa Bay would finally have its team.2

 

ludAlNl.png0RrLOCg.png

 

(Dodge & co.’s joy contrasted with future San Francisco Giants shortstop Brandon Crawford’s dismay.3)

 

Meanwhile, San Francisco mayor Frank Jordan was trying to stop relocation. He had contacted Walter Shorenstein in June to form a group of investors to buy the team. They had several lead investors, the most notable being Charlotte Hornets owner George Shinn, who arrived in August 1992. However, Shinn didn’t have enough capital to present a credible bid. After ejecting Shinn, the group recovered by upping various stakes and including a $10 million loan from Lurie, the same one he gave to the St. Petersburg bid.4

 

The timing worked well in San Francisco’s favor. The baseball owners ousted Commissioner Vincent in August, delaying discussions and leaving National League President Bill White (a former Giant) as the majors’ leader. On September 9, White gave the San Francisco investors an October 12 deadline to put together their bid. Naimoli protested that Lurie couldn’t consider a new deal until the St. Petersburg bid was off the table. White’s response was that it was the majors, not Lurie, considering the bid. Lurie’s loan did complicate things, but White’s reasoning was sound.5

 

With Safeway chairman Peter Magowan now leading the San Francisco group, the local investors presented a $95 million (later $100 million) offer on October 11. Now, the NL owners felt confident enough in the local investors to strike down the St. Petersburg group’s bid by a 9-4 vote. Despite the $15 million difference, the clubs decided that keeping the Giants in San Francisco was the right move.6

 

So, why did White give the San Francisco investors leeway and why did the owners decline a larger offer? Here are several reasons:

  • MLB’s TV contract with CBS was in a tenuous position. Falling ratings saw CBS wanting to renegotiate their contract for a lower price. Moving a team from San Francisco (the 5th-largest market) to Tampa Bay (the 13th-largest market), would have turned the $1.06 billion CBS contract into a $500 million deal. Each team stood to lose $5 - $10 million. High-ranking CBS employee Larry Baer’s presence in the San Francisco group lends credence to this hypothesis.7
  • Dodgers owner Peter O’Malley publicly opposed Tampa Bay’s bid. One can assume that it was both out of a sense of history (i.e., preserve the rivalry) and for financial reasons (e.g., travel costs and EST games – which is also why the Rockies and Padres’ ownership opposed the move). Like with Stoneham trying to move to Minneapolis, an O’Malley intervened to keep the Giants from being idiots.8
  • Stadium for Rent argues that Wayne Huizenga and his Florida Marlins wanted to have some exclusivity in the state. Huizenga opposed the Mariners move, while also arguing for a “transfer fee” to compensate his club.9 Even though he ultimately voted in favor of the Naimoli bid (along with the Cubs, Cardinals, and Phillies), Huizenga’s opposition was notable.10 The book also suggests that the racism Bill White faced in St. Petersburg while playing motivated him to stop the move. That’s a bit dubious.11

 

TL;DR: The dude in my avatar as Frank Jordan/the San Francisco investors/Bill White and his lady opponent as the Naimoli group.

 

FmqldJv.gif

 

This move would have been disastrous for baseball, from both a financial and historical perspective. A smaller TV deal have been a problem for small-market teams. The move also would have killed one of the greatest rivalries in baseball and condemned a legacy franchise to play in deeper obscurity. Maybe my biases are leading me to exaggerate the consequences of the move, I’m not sure. But the point stands – the Tampa Bay Giants should never have happened.

 

But what if the baseball owners decided to be idiots, emulating the NFL of the 1990s? What if the Tampa Bay Giants manifested?

 

PART ONE - Recreations

 

This is one of those times where we have prototypes! Prepared late in the game (around September 26, when the San Francisco bid was well underway), these renderings of caps and road scripts appeared in the 60 Minutes segment entitled “Field of Dreams.”12 Thankfully, @Lights Out and @NDwas took screengrabs  of the video before it left YouTube. These screencaps formed the base of my digitizations.

 

The cap logos use both the 1983-93 Giants and the 1985-2003 Padres’ insignias for a base. I’ve included two variants of option C, since the compression blurred the image. EDIT: I've revised the recreations, per the suggestions of @Gothamite.

 

wvbV5kr.png p8KOX9q.png

Wj8RmNQ.png 6U8JjS6.png

 

 

With some help from @slapshot in identifying the 1983-93 Giants’ base font (modified Clarendon), I’ve been able to recreate the prototype scripts.

 

E2Mp3kr.png

 

The first set uses a “half-arch” pattern, one which I applied to the team’s home wordmark.

 

PTQ4U9b.png

 

NXTQGnx.png

 

The second set brings drop shadow to the whole party. It also demonstrates something I thought was impossible: making the 1983-99 Giants’ number font worse!

 

e781SHG.png

 

ZeN8MpK.png

 

The third set is my ideal version of the design, with an arched “Tampa Bay” wordmark.

 

7eXMwSa.png

 

ehlqOpO.png

 

The jacket would be a “TB” version of the “Danny Tanner” design.

 

9fj6lSZ.png

 

Since I had the parts lying around, I also decided to mock up a “San Francisco” version of the 1983-93 wordmark.

 

SnBwIZi.png

 

C17b7Hu.png

 

Yeah, the “SF” insignia is better. Even then, it's just lipstick on the pig that is the 1983-93 Giants' identity. 

 

Up next, we’ve got two takes on the team – a traditional Giants take and a more “Florida-ized” edition.

 

1 Bob Andelman and Lori Parsells, Stadium For Rent: Tampa Bay’s Quest for Major League Baseball, 2nd edition (St. Petersburg, FL: CreateSpace Independent Publishing Platform, 2015), 330; Robert F. Garratt, Home Team: The Turbulent History of the San Francisco Giants (Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press, 2017), 155–56.

2 Andelman and Parsells, Stadium For Rent, 331–41, 366–68; Garratt, Home Team, 158–59.

3 Andelman and Parsells, Stadium For Rent, 343; Gabe Zaldivar, “Giants’ Brandon Crawford 5-Year Old Self Featured in Coolest World Series Story,” Bleacher Report, October 26, 2012, https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1386320-giants-brandon-crawford-5-year-old-self-featured-in-coolest-world-series-story; Ann Killion, “Brandon Crawford: Living the Dream - SFGate,” SFGate, October 8, 2012, https://www.sfgate.com/giants/article/Brandon-Crawford-living-the-dream-3930508.php.

4 Garratt, Home Team, 156–67.

5 Andelman and Parsells, Stadium For Rent, 370–71, 374–75; Garratt, Home Team, 165–66.

6 Garratt, Home Team, 167–69.

7 Andelman and Parsells, Stadium For Rent, 387–89.

8 Andelman and Parsells, 375–76, 385; Garratt, Home Team, 169.

9 Andelman and Parsells, Stadium For Rent, 389–91.

10 Garratt, Home Team, 169.

11 Andelman and Parsells, Stadium For Rent, xv.

Edited by SFGiants58
Added new renderings.

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Posted (edited)

PART TWO - Neo-retro nauticality

 

Both of my takes on the team operate under the assumption that the team would have stuck with the “Lurie Slab” font for a few years after moving. However, around the time neo-retro kicked into high gear (mid-late 1990s), the team would have decided to modernize their classic font and adopt a new varsity block variant developed by MLB Properties (author’s note: I don’t think the font is proprietary to the Giants, since the Royals and Brewers considered using it).1 This first one centers on the Giants/Pirates font.

 

The primary logo features my take on what’s so “Giant” about Tampa Bay - Tampa Bay itself. I chose to represent it with both wave patterns and the Sunshine Skyway Bridge, one of my favorite suspension bridges in the country. The primary also features a ball with the team wordmark. The secondary is my second attempt at a Giants/Pirates font “TB.” This one doesn’t feature the T going through the B, as the dagger-style design fits the Pirates more than the Giants. A roundel with the wave pattern is the tertiary. EDIT: I updated the "TB" to round the right edges, per @coco1997's request. Here is a comparison and the original image.

 

zTCjolt.png

 

While the home and road set is fairly similar to the 2000-present uniforms, there are key differences. The sleeve stripes are larger and not on the ends, there’s no collar trim, and the homes use a white base and an NoB. Creme and no-NoB doesn’t work at The Trop or a modern Tampa stadium (maybe a legacy club would have better luck scamming taxpayers?). Here is the original image.

 

S4u3hnl.png

 

The alternates follow my standard Giants protocol. An orange-billed cap joins an orange jersey, while a black top features a one-color wordmark. Here is the original image.

 

NLCNf1d.png

 

The orange-billed hat appears with the home uniform, while the 1993 home set is the throwback. It didn’t feel right to have a New York-era throwback while playing in the same division as the Mets. Bill Henderson’s book was the source for the 1983-99 number font.Here is the original image.

 

wRWhXLg.png

 

The jacket features a modified Seren Script (by Type Faith Fonts) “Tampa Bay” wordmark. The tri-stripe forms the trim. Here is the original image.

 

dTox9Rt.png

 

While it would’ve been an awful relocation, the Giants could have rocked their neo-retro aesthetic pretty well in St. Pete or Tampa. C+C is appreciated, as always!

 

Up next, we get slightly more Floridian.

 

1 William F. Henderson, Game Worn Guide to MLB Jerseys: (1970–2017), Eighth (Philadelphia, PA: Aardvark Publishing, 2017), 910; Paul Lukas, “The Rodney Dangerfield of MLB | Uni Watch,” Uni Watch, November 23, 2011, https://uni-watch.com/2011/11/23/royals-unveil-uniform-updates/.

2 Henderson, Game Worn Guide to MLB Jerseys, 3428.

 

Edited by SFGiants58
I updated the "TB" insignia.

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That neo-retro Tampa Bay is just great

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Posted (edited)

PART THREE - Floridian Flare

 

This concept follows the same hypothesis as the previous one (a neo-retro redesign of the team in the late-'90s/early-'00s), but this one goes in a slightly different direction. Instead of the Giants restoring their classic font, they would instead modernize their vintage cursive script to fit with their Florida setting.

 

20120106SAWG_fg17a.jpg 5PX3ykQ.png

 

Seren Script by Type Faith Fonts forms the basis of these new scripts. Here is a comparison with the vintage wordmark, along with the update:

 

pIZGaL0.png 5s3zXaS.png

 

The scripts replace the Giants/Pirates lettering from the neo-retro take. The ball stitching from the Twins' primary logo takes the place of the Giants-style stitches of the first version. EDIT: I've updated the "Tampa Bay" wordmark to have a few more flairs and tighter spacing between the two words, per @coco1997's suggestion. Here is a comparison and here is the original logo sheet. EDIT 2: I've updated the script to have a shorter tail, per @Ferdinand Cesarano's suggestion. Here is a comparison and here is the second logo sheet.

 

aQgzQZT.png

 

The uniforms now feature the scripts, along with front numbers. Here is the original home & road set, and the first update.

 

gccFhNW.png

 

The alternates follow the same formula as the previous design, except with the "TB" replacing the "Tampa Bay" wordmark. The initial rendering (with trim errors) is here, along with the original update.

 

cPZ8NQ8.png

 

I kept the orange-billed cap and heritage alternate from the first set. Here is the original image, along with the first update.

 

M52lgXC.png

 

The jacket is the same, except for the new primary logo patch. This link leads to the original image, and this is the first update.

 

ExEKcmN.png

 

I like this take a bit more than the previous version, as I'd rather see the Tampa Bay Giants break with their aesthetic (and competitive, given the fall of the great rivalry, Naimoli ownership, and entry into the NL East) traditions and try something new. It'd look pretty nice in one of those Tampa Bay stadium concepts that pops up now and then - capturing a "classically Floridian" aesthetic. While the Giants moving to Tampa Bay would have been awful on many fronts, they still had the potential to look fantastic.

 

C+C is appreciated, as always!

 

Up next, we wrap up the sweepstakes with a few experiments.

 

Edited by SFGiants58
I updated the road script, then the home wordmark.

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Wow, great job with the different variants on the TB Giants! I’ll break down my feedback by each version.

 

Version 1- I really dig the “half-arched” wordmarks. The drop shadowed version is pretty hard to look at.

 

Neo-retro Version - The primary with the Sunshine Skyway Bridge = chef’s kiss. One small nitpick: is it possible to round off the openings inside the “B” in “TB” so it looks less like a modified ‘8’?

 

”Florida-fied” version - This is easily my favorite. I’m not sold on the “Tampa Bay” script, though. I wonder if you could use the “TB” logo as a crest, or even just reuse that gorgeous “Giants” script on the road as well, similar to how Rays use the same wordmark on both their home and road jerseys. I’d also like to see a white crowned cap, maybe as a Sunday home option?

 

Great work, and I look forward to whatever’s next!

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I really like version 3 with the Florida slant, but I think the script can work just as well in San Francisco as well, IMO.

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I must say, this thread, as a whole, is fantastic. The design elements and presentation are awesome, but I really dig the historical thought process and information presented and how it all ties together. Such a solid idea with great execution and so much research done. I'm fascinated by sports relocation and what could have been and really enjoying your take. I've also learned so much I had no idea about. I consider myself a pretty big Seattle fan and know about the M's and Seahakws almost leaving in the 90s but was unaware of the White Sox/Athletics swap of the 1960s. All things equal, I think I'd take Griffey, Edgar, Ichiro, Randy, Bunher and the rest than take over the White Sox (but as the Athletics) history, including the 05 World Series. Griffey made me a sports fan and I'm not sure it would have been the same otherwise. I knew about Opening Day II but had seen very little about it and definitely hadn't seen those photos before and glad someone finally made a digital rendering of the Seattle script. And that Tampa Mariners logo from 1992...how do I get that on a t-shirt?! (Same is true for the Anaheim Seahawks, but I digress). I just ordered the Stadium for Rent book you recommended and excited to dig even deeper. Again, really enjoying this both visually and as a history lesson.

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On 1/9/2019 at 10:32 AM, coco1997 said:

Wow, great job with the different variants on the TB Giants! I’ll break down my feedback by each version.

 

Version 1- I really dig the “half-arched” wordmarks. The drop shadowed version is pretty hard to look at.

 

Neo-retro Version - The primary with the Sunshine Skyway Bridge = chef’s kiss. One small nitpick: is it possible to round off the openings inside the “B” in “TB” so it looks less like a modified ‘8’?

 

”Florida-fied” version - This is easily my favorite. I’m not sold on the “Tampa Bay” script, though. I wonder if you could use the “TB” logo as a crest, or even just reuse that gorgeous “Giants” script on the road as well, similar to how Rays use the same wordmark on both their home and road jerseys. I’d also like to see a white crowned cap, maybe as a Sunday home option?

 

Great work, and I look forward to whatever’s next!

 

Thanks! It was a strange mixture of fun and pain-in-the-ass to do those recreations. Trying to match drop shadows is a bunch of busywork, especially when working from the reference material I had. Still, I like putting these obscure prototypes into a clear, digitized form. I've added a few more images, per @Gothamite's suggestions in the "Unused Logos and Uniforms" thread.

 

I'm glad you like the Sunshine Skyway Bridge in the logo! I'm surprised that the Rays and Lightning have never really used it in a design. Heck, it was all over the speculation merchandise put out by Native Sun Sportswear:

 

PX38XNf.png

 

I do like that bridge.1

 

I've also added rounded edges on the right sides of the hole in the "B." It really improves the design! I've updated the original design to reflect these changes.

 

fs1esWP.png

 

I'm really happy you like the Florida-style design. As for the road script, I think I can make it a bit better by adding a bit of a flair to the lower part of the "p" and reducing the spacing between the two words. I've updated the original post accordingly.

 

2Hi47Pn.png

 

I do like your ideas for road uniform variations, especially the white cap (preferably in one of the semi-outdoor stadium concepts) and the "TB" road jersey!

 

L8o9kc0.png MCyvzav.png

 

Like with the Toronto Giants, this one was both a fun exploration and a grim reminder of how my hometown team nearly moved due to undiscerning sellers overwhelmed by the awfulness that was Candlestick Park. A baseball world without the Giants-Dodgers rivalry, without Willie Mays Park, and with a glamour/legacy club playing at The Trop is one I wouldn't want to see.

 

Just to show you how historically-ignorant the Naimoli group and various Tampa Bay leaders were, here's a quote from Stadium for Rent:

 

Quote

“I was surprised that there were almost no negative questions in the whole two and a half day process, even during a radio call-in talk show,” [Jack} Critchfield (one of the primary money men behind the post-1991 expansion drama relocation attempts) says. “The only question that was ever raised in Los Angeles was, ‘What about the Giants-Dodgers rivalry?’ My response was that if, in 1957, one had gone to California and the other had stayed in New York, the rivalry would be just as great if not greater and I saw no reason why moving one back 3,000 miles to the east was going to change that.”2

 

G7qAg1X.gif

 

Maybe in the days of pre-divisional play, that might have been true. However, what sells and intensifies the Giants-Dodgers rivalry is the proximity of the two teams and how their seen as "representing" different characteristics of their close locations. Losing the proximity would kill the rivalry, Mr. Critchfield. 

 

On 1/9/2019 at 11:35 AM, Dalcowboyfan92 said:

I really like version 3 with the Florida slant, but I think the script can work just as well in San Francisco as well, IMO.

 

Thanks! I'm not entirely sure that it'd work in San Francisco, given that a "San Francisco"-style script would be a bit more like this:

 

zmxyzq43clsi10aws0uhita46.gif

 

It's got more sharp edges, with a less blocky look. @the admiral had a whole point about how the Giants' classic script (seen in my image for the Florida-style concept) doesn't really work in San Francisco like it did in New York. While I disagree with him, I do see his point. These scripts I made here are decidedly more Florida-style.

 

On 1/9/2019 at 4:40 PM, benpc21 said:

I must say, this thread, as a whole, is fantastic. The design elements and presentation are awesome, but I really dig the historical thought process and information presented and how it all ties together. Such a solid idea with great execution and so much research done. I'm fascinated by sports relocation and what could have been and really enjoying your take. I've also learned so much I had no idea about. I consider myself a pretty big Seattle fan and know about the M's and Seahakws almost leaving in the 90s but was unaware of the White Sox/Athletics swap of the 1960s. All things equal, I think I'd take Griffey, Edgar, Ichiro, Randy, Bunher and the rest than take over the White Sox (but as the Athletics) history, including the 05 World Series. Griffey made me a sports fan and I'm not sure it would have been the same otherwise. I knew about Opening Day II but had seen very little about it and definitely hadn't seen those photos before and glad someone finally made a digital rendering of the Seattle script. And that Tampa Mariners logo from 1992...how do I get that on a t-shirt?! (Same is true for the Anaheim Seahawks, but I digress). I just ordered the Stadium for Rent book you recommended and excited to dig even deeper. Again, really enjoying this both visually and as a history lesson.

 

Thanks! I'm glad you like the research and the designs. It's really been fun diving deep into both aspects of the series. I found out a lot of new information over the course of the series, stuff that goes beyond a lot of what I'd picked up from sundry articles here and there. I'm glad you ordered Stadium for Rent, as it's a fantastic resource for finding out information on the Tampa Bay Sweepstakes and how thoroughly MLB and various Tampa Bay Area politicians/businessmen screwed over the potential baseball fans.

 

I really wanted to get a digital rendering of that "Seattle" wordmark out there, especially since 1987-92 Mariners renderings were fairly obscure for a long time (something about The Cooperstown Collection and rights issues). 

 

I'd love to have one of those t-shirts as well! I think they pop up on eBay or Etsy every once in a while. 

 

A Giant collage!

 

Now that every variation of the Giants is done, let's go through their history as seen in my series!

 

Here are the primary and secondary logos, which show what's so "giant" about the Giants.

 

Linked here is the original render.

 

dbd3ZLW.png

 

Their two locations, New York and San Francisco:

 

ul8nxRy.png

 

The attempt to move to Metropolitan Stadium in Bloomington, Minnesota (thank you, Walter O'Malley, for talking Stoneham out of it), with Minneapolis, Twin Cities, and Minnesota identifiers:

 

K0U9PDY.png

 

The "Candlestick Escape" relocations, Toronto, San José, and Tampa Bay (original is linked here):

 

7hT8riI.png

 

The alternate takes, New York  Gothams (if the Giants maintained their 1883-84 name) and San Francisco Seals (if the Giants changed their name upon moving to San Francisco):

 

5GGB9VM.png

 

Up next, we'll wrap up the Sweepstakes with a tiny tweak to the 1998 AL expansion team and a summary of what transpired in between the early-1980s and 1998. 

 

1 Bob Andelman and Lori Parsells, Stadium For Rent: Tampa Bay’s Quest for Major League Baseball, 2nd edition (St. Petersburg, FL: CreateSpace Independent Publishing Platform, 2015), 281; Marc Topkin, “And Another ‘Tampa Bay #Giants’ t-Shirt from the 1992 Pre-#Rays Erapic.Twitter.Com/QjJzCq4eKw,” Tweet, @tbtimes_rays (blog), August 2, 2013, https://twitter.com/tbtimes_rays/statuses/363296107503181824.

2 Andelman and Parsells, Stadium for Rent, 368.

 

Edited by SFGiants58
Citations and resizing the images, then an update

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It’s so awesome seeing all the different possible Giants relocations together in one place. It’s a real testament to all the hard work and creativity you’ve put into this series.

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This is so cool. I’m with the others—the “Florida-fied” script version of the TB Giants is the nicest. That look would work anywhere actually.

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All the iterations of the Tampa Bay Giants look great! The Pirates-font version would help them fit nicely with the Buccaneers, though I particularly like the final arched “Tampa Bay” original version as well as your “Florida-fied” version. The white cap would also be a great addition to the set, and the “TB” gray uniform would work great as a road alt.

 

The Giants collage you presented is also truly astounding. To echo @coco1997, it really is a testement to your amazing work and creativity in making each Giants team unique to their city. It is interesting though, that it goes to show that despite all of those options, San Francisco probably ended up being the best possible result!

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@SFGiants58, this series has been a real pleasure to follow. Almost all your work has been near perfection, and the creativity you’ve shown here really makes the boards a fun place to visit. Excited to see what’s up next

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On 1/11/2019 at 12:43 AM, SFGiants58 said:

Up next, we'll wrap up the Sweepstakes with a tiny tweak to the 1998 AL expansion team

Don’t you dare mess with that rainbow.

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On 1/8/2019 at 6:45 PM, SFGiants58 said:

PART THREE - Floridian Flare

 

This concept follows the same hypothesis as the previous one (a neo-retro redesign of the team in the late-'90s/early-'00s), but this one goes in a slightly different direction. Instead of the Giants restoring their classic font, they would instead modernize their vintage cursive script to fit with their Florida setting.

 

20120106SAWG_fg17a.jpg 5PX3ykQ.png

 

Seren Script by Type Faith Fonts forms the basis of these new scripts. Here is a comparison with the vintage wordmark:

 

pIZGaL0.png

 

The scripts replace the Giants/Pirates lettering from the neo-retro take. The ball stitching from the Twins' primary logo takes the place of the Giants-style stitches of the first version. EDIT: I've updated the "Tampa Bay" wordmark to have a few more flairs and tighter spacing between the two words, per @coco1997's suggestion. Here is a comparison and here is the original logo sheet.

 

BugYqOe.png

 

The uniforms now feature the scripts, along with front numbers. Here is the original home & road set.

 

gCRC40S.png

 

The alternates follow the same formula as the previous design, except with the "TB" replacing the "Tampa Bay" wordmark. The initial rendering (with trim errors) is here.

 

pB8UVZc.png

 

I kept the orange-billed cap and heritage alternate from the first set. Here is the original image.

 

FgSnRS4.png

 

The jacket is the same, except for the new primary logo patch. This link leads to the original image.

 

7T0jSXP.png

 

I like this take a bit more than the previous version, as I'd rather see the Tampa Bay Giants break with their aesthetic (and competitive, given the fall of the great rivalry, Naimoli ownership, and entry into the NL East) traditions and try something new. It'd look pretty nice in one of those Tampa Bay stadium concepts that pops up now and then - capturing a "classically Floridian" aesthetic. While the Giants moving to Tampa Bay would have been awful on many fronts, they still had the potential to look fantastic.

 

C+C is appreciated, as always!

 

Up next, we wrap up the sweepstakes with a few experiments.

 


I like these the most.  They still look like the Giants, yet have uniquely Florida vibe to them.

I would imagine this team would eventually choose to emphasize orange as its main color, but that probably wouldn't work without doing something like this first.  Once again, great job!

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On 1/11/2019 at 9:00 AM, coco1997 said:

It’s so awesome seeing all the different possible Giants relocations together in one place. It’s a real testament to all the hard work and creativity you’ve put into this series.

 

Thanks! It's been fun exploring my team's history and how it relates to their aesthetic style.

 

On 1/11/2019 at 9:06 AM, appleclock said:

This is so cool. I’m with the others—the “Florida-fied” script version of the TB Giants is the nicest. That look would work anywhere actually.

 

Thank you!

 

On 1/11/2019 at 12:02 PM, MJD7 said:

All the iterations of the Tampa Bay Giants look great! The Pirates-font version would help them fit nicely with the Buccaneers, though I particularly like the final arched “Tampa Bay” original version as well as your “Florida-fied” version. The white cap would also be a great addition to the set, and the “TB” gray uniform would work great as a road alt.

 

The Giants collage you presented is also truly astounding. To echo @coco1997, it really is a testement to your amazing work and creativity in making each Giants team unique to their city. It is interesting though, that it goes to show that despite all of those options, San Francisco probably ended up being the best possible result!

 

Thanks! Assembling these different Giants concepts was a fascinating look into my favorite team's aesthetic conventions and how their setting changes it. I do like the San Francisco ones the best, with New York and Minnesota concepts right behind them.

 

On 1/11/2019 at 7:58 PM, NDFreek said:

@SFGiants58, this series has been a real pleasure to follow. Almost all your work has been near perfection, and the creativity you’ve shown here really makes the boards a fun place to visit. Excited to see what’s up next

 

Thank you so much!

 

On 1/12/2019 at 6:05 PM, HereComesThax said:

Don’t you dare mess with that rainbow.

 

Don't worry, that rainbow isn't going anywhere!

 

On 1/13/2019 at 12:00 AM, Big Yellow Flag said:

Can we see a similar collage for the A's? It'd be a really different kind of world if they'd moved, but at least an artistically nice one.

 

Sure, once I'm done with them. We've got San José and Portland as well! Let's hope my laptop's RAM can handle it.

 

On 1/15/2019 at 4:57 PM, NicDB said:


I like these the most.  They still look like the Giants, yet have uniquely Florida vibe to them.

I would imagine this team would eventually choose to emphasize orange as its main color, but that probably wouldn't work without doing something like this first.  Once again, great job!

 

Thanks! That brings them a little close to the Orioles, but I could see the team striking a balance between the current Giants and the Orioles. Maybe a creamsicle orange would improve the differentiation?

 

Still, the near-relocation to Tampa Bay prompted one of my favorite quotes from the research. This except from Blaine Newnham's August 11, 1992 column in The Seattle Times ("If Move OK’d, It’s a Giant Mistake") reads:

 

Quote

Willie Mays should have finished his career where it started, in the Polo Grounds. San Francisco had always been an American League town. Its minor-league teams were affiliated with the AL, and its greatest hero, Joe DiMaggio, had played there as well.

 

Mays never was as happy in San Francisco as he was in New York.

 

The last statement may be slightly accurate, but the first has pretty much been laughable for the past 20-25 years. Imagine saying this any time after the signing of Barry Bonds, the opening of privately-funded Willie Mays Park, or the three-in-five.

 

We’re wrapping it up today, with a little look into what could have been for the 1998 AL expansion team!

 

TAMPA BAY STINGRAYS - Putting the sting into The Trop

 

After the rejection of the bid to buy the Giants, Naimoli & Co. got litigious. A $3.5 billion lawsuit against baseball’s antitrust exemption proved to be enough of a credible threat to get expansion rolling in 1995. Tampa Bay would finally have a team, with Naimoli at the helm. One of his original naming plans was Sting Rays, but he wouldn’t pay $100,000 to a Hawaiian league team for the rights. This, of course, led to the Devil Rays name (with the "Manta Rays" phone poll), which in turn prompted the “ray of light” rebranding.2 However, what if Naimoli wasn’t such a cheapskate (unlikely), and paid for the Stingrays name?

 

I assumed that he would still want the gradient design, for both period appeal and selling many different colors of apparel. The only element that would really change is the image of the ray, as a stingray and a devil ray are markedly different creatures. I kept the aesthetic style, making the normally placid stingray (puppies of the sea) look agitated. There are two renderings here, one for the alternate cap and one for everything else (based on this reference image).3

 

ufigqD8.png

 

The shape of the stingray forced some adjustments to its placement on the cap and wordmarks, as it doesn’t cover the same space as the devil ray. I figured that these placements would be logical, showing most of the skate without obscuring the text. 

 

nbyYqSi.png

 

While the black jersey is largely unchanged from the 1998 version, I overhauled the TATC jersey to really embrace the gradient.

 

8oBfMfN.png

 

The jacket really gets into the gradient theme now, with the pattern on the sleeves.

 

0XYUkJF.png

 

With the Stingrays (or Sting Rays), the AL Tampa Bay team may not have needed such a radical rebrand in 2008. Heck, maybe they could wear something like this:

 

Spoiler

UE90rq7.png

 

qy9YCme.png

 

EhiWSLm.png

 

8rVefEm.png

 

wmHMFMh.png

 

C+C is appreciated, as always!

 

Now, it’s time for the wrap-up.

 

After all of this hullabaloo, what happened? Naimoli received the Rays, proceededing to run them as poorly/cheaply as possible, turning away potential fans. He eventually sold the team to Stu Sternberg, leading the Rays towards competitive success. However, this sale also started their current mess of looking for a new stadium due to The Trop/Florida Suncoast Dome’s significant issues. 

 

All in all, St. Petersburg built a poorly-designed stadium in the worst possible location, while also gaining a cheapskate initial owner. This was after about a decade of fighting between Tampa and St. Petersburg to get a team via relocation or expansion. This period featured near misses, double crosses, and faith in the wrong people (e.g., Steve Porter and Sidney Kohl, a variety of MLB owners and leaders, and Frank Morsani’s investors). The potential fans in Tampa Bay got repeatedly pummeled by these problems. They saw how baseball’s leadership could never be trusted and that their chances for a team could go away as quickly as they appeared. This mistrust is hard to disassemble. Morsani (whose $100 million lawsuit recieved an undisclosed settlement in 2003) described it like this,

 

Quote

“Carol [his wife] and I haved moved past the emotional pain. It’s in the past. But I did lose my appetite for Major League Baseball. I wish the Tampa Bay Rays and their organization well -- I truly do -- but I have never purchased a ticket or attended a big-league game since our pursuit of a franchise and the subsequent lawsuit. Nor do I plan to.”4

 

I wonder how many people share this perspective.

 

The speculation period’s effect was a net negative for the market. Major League Baseball, St. Petersburg city officials, and Vince Naimoli, both knowingly and unknowingly, crippled baseball’s viability in Tampa Bay before a team could even take the field. 

 

I really wish ESPN would do a 30 for 30 on this ordeal. Heck, any kind of documentary would be welcome. It’s a fascinating period in the history of the game, one that Portland, Montréal, and Las Vegas might be in the middle of imitating.

 

Never build a taxpayer-funded stadium (especially one people didn’t vote for) on speculation. You’ll only be disappointed.

 

4KMCgUH.png

 

1 Blaine Newnham, “If Move OK’d, It’s a Giant Mistake,” The Seattle Times, August 11, 1992, sec. Sports.

Bob Andelman and Lori Parsells, Stadium For Rent: Tampa Bay’s Quest for Major League Baseball, 2nd edition (St. Petersburg, FL: CreateSpace Independent Publishing Platform, 2015), xvi–xviii, 396–97; Mark Woods, “The Name Stays. It’s the Devil Rays.,” USA Today, April 3, 1995, https://infoweb.newsbank.com/apps/news/document-view?p=NewsBank&t=&sort=YMD_date%3AD&fld-base-0=alltext&maxresults=20&val-base-0="manta rays" naimoli&docref=news/127E86B551BEE478; Jonah Keri, “The Devil In Tampa: Remembering The Penny-Pinching, Snack-Policing, Nut-Cutting Days Of Vince Naimoli,” Deadspin, March 9, 2011, http://web.archive.org/web/20170304040037/https://deadspin.com/5779887/the-devil-in-tampa-remembering-the-penny-pinching-snack-policing-nut-cutting-days-of-vince-naimoli.

3 Istock-184948807.Jpg (618×410),” accessed January 17, 2019, https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/istock-184948807.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&w=618&h=410&crop=1.

4 Andelman and Parsells, Stadium For Rent, 396; AP, “Tampa Investors Settle with MLB,” Sarasota Herald, September 27, 2003, sec. Sports, https://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20030927/News/605227064; Frank Morsani and Dave Scheiber, To Be Frank: Building the American Dream in Business and Life (Tampa, FL: BlackWood Books, 2015), 179.

 

Edited by SFGiants58

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The Sting Rays look great!

 

Very curious and excited to see where this series goes next!

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