2010 LeBron James Sweepstakes

[OnWis97]

Kobe's five titles vs. LBJ's two is far too often used as an apples-to-apples comparison. It's not.

While titles aren't the end-all-be-all of a player's legacy you can't ignore then either. At the end of the day the number of rings James has in conparison to the other greats (Kobe Bryant included) will be a factor in evaluating his legacy.
Now James' career isn't over yet, so who knows what that discussion will look like? I can say that rings will be a factor.

No. It will, in most circles be the factor. In fact, even if he gets five, he'll be criticized for losing three (as if getting to more is worse than losing earlier in the playoffs).

Of course it will be a factor...my point is it will be an overrated factor. For example, does KG's one ring salvage his legacy? Had he stayed in Minnesota, he'd be the same player but with zero rings.

Actually, even if LeBron wins 5 more, they'll be marginalized because of his joining of "super teams". Evan though that's kinda what Kobe and Shaq did (albeit less planned) in both choosing their ways to LA.

LeBron isn't hated for leaving Cleveland, it's for the way he did it.

Sorry, but The Decision - as big of a mistake as it was for LeBron - is nothing compared to the way Kobe treated multiple franchises before playing even a second of NBA basketball.

That's revisionist history of the highest (lowest?) calibre and completely ridiculous.

Is it? I know the way LeBron left is part of this hate that is now going on four years. But he got drafted by Cleveland, played his seven years and then went off to greener pastures. Kobe, an 18 year old, said "I'm only playing in a big market." Maybe LO's statement about "how he treated multiple franchises" is off...maybe he did not treat anybody badly, since I think he was honest from the beginning. But he certainly "worked" the system way more than LBJ did.

LBJ had a "damned if you do; damned if you don't" situation. He was going to either have to spurn his home town and join a more "title-ready" team or he was going to stay in Cleveland, never win a title and be Karl Malone. It would be interesting to go back in time and revise history and see how much hate we'd have for him if he'd just quietly signed with Miami; we'll never know. But part of me thinks he was cursed the moment Cleveland won the lottery (moreso than if, for example, Milwaukee, had won the lottery).

Admittedly this is my issue...I probably hate Kobe more than I need to. I hated him when he refused to play in a small market. It intensified at the All-Star game in Philly when he was clearly trying to win MVP (LeBron's not the only self-promoter). But I just can't stand how Kobe's given a pass for how he got to LA (and his first 3 titles got to him because Shaq wanted to maximize his own marketability) and LeBron is ripped to shreds for what he did.

And if it's just about "the decision" then it should be time for us to get over it. He was still a relatively young man who allowed himself to be caught up in the hype. And his image would probably be better if he'd beaten someone up in a bar, gotten a DUI, or, say, "allegedly" raped a woman in a Colorado hotel.

If I could have lunch with MJ, Kobe, or LBJ, I'd choose LBJ because I can't imagine either of the other two being nice to the likes of me. And if LeBron is not as good as those two, maybe that's part of his problem.

[IceCap]

Kobe's five titles vs. LBJ's two is far too often used as an apples-to-apples comparison. It's not.

While titles aren't the end-all-be-all of a player's legacy you can't ignore then either. At the end of the day the number of rings James has in conparison to the other greats (Kobe Bryant included) will be a factor in evaluating his legacy.

Now James' career isn't over yet, so who knows what that discussion will look like? I can say that rings will be a factor.

No. It will, in most circles be the factor...Of course it will be a factor...my point is it will be an overrated factor.

My point is that using the number of championships won to judge any player's career is just fine. Of course it becomes overblown as a factor but the reaction to that of downplaying championships is just as detrimental to the conversation.

LeBron isn't hated for leaving Cleveland, it's for the way he did it.

Sorry, but The Decision - as big of a mistake as it was for LeBron - is nothing compared to the way Kobe treated multiple franchises before playing even a second of NBA basketball.

That's revisionist history of the highest (lowest?) calibre and completely ridiculous.

Is it?

Yes. "The Decision" was a massively hyped special aired on a major network seen by millions. Bryant's alleged backroom dealings happened behind closed doors. Further, Bryant was neither the first nor the last big draft prospect to try and leverage who he got to play for. Unseemly? Sure, but nothing strange or shocking. LeBron James was the first superstar to treat his decision on where to sign in free agency as an opportunity to hold a prime time special dedicated to his greatness as a means of leading up to the announcement. Saying what Bryant did was worse? Or that "the Decision" was nothing in comparison? That is revisionist history. It's assigning a reaction to an event retroactively. Bryant "forcing" the Hornets to send him to LA didn't have the press, hype, or impact as James' "Decision" special did.

As an aside, this is why I can't stand a LeBron James discussion with Lights Out. The entire exercise turns into an excuse for him to try and build James up while attempting to knock Kobe Bryant down because he can't separate a sports rivalry from objectively analysing Bryant as a player. If he can work in a few potshots or complaints directed at Jordan all the better for him.

And if it's just about "the decision" then it should be time for us to get over it. He was still a relatively young man who allowed himself to be caught up in the hype.

Look, I never had a problem with James going to Miami beyond the whole "it's against the spirit of competition to gang up so you can beat a bunch of scrubs" thing. I've got nothing to "get over." From an objective perspective "the Decision" was a douche-tastic way to handle what should have been a simple free agency signing.

I probably hate Kobe more than I need to...."allegedly" raped a woman in a Colorado hotel.

I'd say you do. Was he ever proven to be a rapist in a court of law? Innocent until proven guilty is kind of a big deal. So labelling someone as one of the most disgusting types criminals isn't something you should do lightly. Especially when your reasoning doesn't extend beyond "I don't like him as a player."

If I could have lunch with MJ, Kobe, or LBJ, I'd choose LBJ because I can't imagine either of the other two being nice to the likes of me. And if LeBron is not as good as those two, maybe that's part of his problem.

So is that what your point is based around? Which player you "like" better? And you made your decision based off of the same rationale Americans used to justify voting for George W. Bush two times. Awesome.

If you're going to evaluate them as players then Jordan comes out on top and it's not even close. Bryant and James are a bit closer, and the comparison's harder to make because Bryant is at the end of his career while James is still in the prime of his. In terms of comparing Bryant's current body of work to James' current body of work? Bryant comes out on top. For now.

[OnWis97]

If you're going to evaluate them as players then Jordan comes out on top and it's not even close. Bryant and James are a bit closer, and the comparison's harder to make because Bryant is at the end of his career while James is still in the prime of his. In terms of comparing Bryant's current body of work to James' current body of work? Bryant comes out on top. For now.

I never pretended to be evaluating anyone as players. I simply stated 1) that I think championships is overrated (for hoops superstars and quarterbacks) and 2) that the impact of LBJ's early career (rookie thorough "decision") was probably less self-serving than Kobe making sure he got to a big market (and lamenting how that's always overlooked while LBJ is still getting ripped). I personally think we are being very hard on LeBron for far too long...it's really amazing to see a player like this consistently cheered against in comparison with, say, Jordan. I'm not literally telling you to get over it, but I wish "we" would.

And yeah, sometimes I cheer for a nicer guy vs. a prick. That's much of my rationale of liking LBJ over Kobe. Kobe turned me off from day 1. I also cheer for LeBron out of frustration with the over-the-top hate.

Your ranking is probably right: Jordan's gonna be tough for anyone to catch (Though the Kobe lovers think it has happened). Kobe is on top of LBJ...and I don't even know about "for now." Kobe has/had a lot of that killer instinct LBJ may lack...LBJ has as much raw talent as anyone, but from everything I've read about Jordan, he was a freakish character in terms of competitiveness, tuning out the crap, and just flat out being super-driven. Kobe seems to be much closer to that than LBJ.

In any case, I don't know that LO's point is "revisionist." His opinion is that what Kobe did was worse...while 99% of US sportsfans disagree, it's just an opinion.

[vmd9]

So far seems that the Mavericks, Suns, Rockets and Cavs have met with James' agent today. Have to think since Lebron didn't care to attend the meetings he must have his mind made up already? I'm still seeing a Miami return.

[Gothamite]

And yeah, sometimes I cheer for a nicer guy vs. a prick. That's much of my rationale of liking LBJ over Kobe.

If LeBron dismantles the Heat just so he can get a couple extra millions dollars, he instantly flips from one to the other in my book.

[dfwabel]

So far seems that the Mavericks, Suns, Rockets and Cavs have met with James' agent today. Have to think since Lebron didn't care to attend the meetings he must have his mind made up already? I'm still seeing a Miami return.

And the Mavericks met with Carmelo yesterday.

Mark Cuban has said no max contracts since this new CBA was signed. He will be "aggressive" but no max deals.

The agreement for Dirk also means that there is no max deal for anyone.

[The_Admiral]

I also cheer for LeBron out of frustration with the over-the-top hate.

ugh

I enjoyed this piece from last summer:

https://medium.com/@ComeBackZinc/how-the-nba-became-a-league-for-snobs-aa4afd698a2b

This nastiness has prompted many in the national NBA media to run in the opposite direction: by now, there’s a whole chorus of voices that ritually defend the Heat after every bad game or controversy. This line of defense has been most consistent and vocal at ESPN.com, the most prominent sports website in the world, and its subsidiary, Grantland.com, although it can be found on countless sports blogs and websites.

But really the whole thing is worth reading, especially about the artlessness of LeBron's play relative to Jordan et al. It's true. LeBron is big and strong and you expect him to do whatever he wants because he's big and strong and then he does. Bo-ring. It's like watching Soviet tanks put down a rebellion. I'm more interested in the rebellion.

[BBTV]

But really the whole thing is worth reading, especially about the artlessness of LeBron's play relative to Jordan et al. It's true. LeBron is big and strong and you expect him to do whatever he wants because he's big and strong and then he does. Bo-ring. It's like watching Soviet tanks put down a rebellion. I'm more interested in the rebellion.

Amen. Even though LeBron is the best player in the world, I think in terms of excitement the Clippers, Dubs, Thunder, hell even the Blazers and Wizards are more entertaining. Maybe it's just me but constantly driving towards the basket and drawing fouls <<<<< barrage of 3's and dunks

I'm not a big basketball fan but I went to a couple Sixers/Heat playoff games a couple of years ago and was amazed at Lebron in person. The dude did absolutey whatever he wanted to at any time. I've been to a lot of NBA games (never got to see Jordan live though) but I really can't remember seeing anything like that. He could throw a pass like a laser through 3 defenders, go around anyone, read the sports section of the Inquirer while blocking a shot, etc. It was unreal. In the two games I saw, I don't think there was any point that he was even a little bit frustrated - it was almost like he was bored.

But yeah - nothing dramatic, no jaw-dropping moments, etc. Mostly because he's so good that nobody could challenge him to the point where he had to make a super dramatic dunk or fall away shot or anything.

[crashcarson15]

This thread has made me realize that LeBron's been in the league for 11 years now. Holy :censored:.

Also, as the Resident Sane Cavaliers Fan™ on the boards, I don't hate LeBron. Four years changes a lot of things—and the way LeBron's matured has been pretty cool to see.

I mean, :censored:, when it's all set and done he's a likable guy.

(Gut says he goes back to Miami on a short-term deal but we'll see about that.)

But really the whole thing is worth reading, especially about the artlessness of LeBron's play relative to Jordan et al. It's true. LeBron is big and strong and you expect him to do whatever he wants because he's big and strong and then he does. Bo-ring. It's like watching Soviet tanks put down a rebellion. I'm more interested in the rebellion.

Amen. Even though LeBron is the best player in the world, I think in terms of excitement the Clippers, Dubs, Thunder, hell even the Blazers and Wizards are more entertaining. Maybe it's just me but constantly driving towards the basket and drawing fouls <<<<< barrage of 3's and dunks

Having the ability to drive to the basket and draw a foul whenever you want to is about the best thing a player can do in the sport of basketball IMHO. I'd much rather watch a dude take over like that then "Oh hey, another slam dunk! That's like the 10th this quarter!"

[dbadefense1990]

And yeah, sometimes I cheer for a nicer guy vs. a prick. That's much of my rationale of liking LBJ over Kobe.

If LeBron dismantles the Heat just so he can get a couple extra millions dollars, he instantly flips from one to the other in my book.

If this should happen, then what does LeBron want his legacy to be at this point?

Four years ago, he took an effective contract pay cut to go to Miami rather than getting more cash in Cleveland. The results? 2 regular season MVP's, 2 NBA championships and 4 Finals appearances. Now, he's doing the complete 180° and still expecting his championship needs to be fulfilled without any issue.

What's his apparent prowls now? If LeBron did care for championships in today's time space continuum, he'd understand that some players (Duncan) are humble enough to recognize their value to the team, not to their ego, and do what's necessary for his team to compete for championships now. He apparently recognized this four years ago, foregoing contract pay in Cleveland for a chance at championships in Miami, and has forgotten it by now.

And does anyone remember if the Cavaliers ever offered the maximum contract and pay as a last-ditch effort for him to stay there? Or did LeBron not want anything to do with Cleveland during those 2010 negotiations.

[FiddySicks]

I get this feeling that I'm probably going to set a new personal record today when it comes to the amount of times I absolutely implore you to just spare us all, already.

And apparently Lebron is Stalin now, too. Jesus, just go away already. All of you.

[Lights Out]

But really the whole thing is worth reading, especially about the artlessness of LeBron's play relative to Jordan et al. It's true. LeBron is big and strong and you expect him to do whatever he wants because he's big and strong and then he does. Bo-ring. It's like watching Soviet tanks put down a rebellion. I'm more interested in the rebellion.

Amen. Even though LeBron is the best player in the world, I think in terms of excitement the Clippers, Dubs, Thunder, hell even the Blazers and Wizards are more entertaining. Maybe it's just me but constantly driving towards the basket and drawing fouls <<<<< barrage of 3's and dunks

To be fair, you're making LeBron sound like James Harden.

[Lee Noire]

And yeah, sometimes I cheer for a nicer guy vs. a prick. That's much of my rationale of liking LBJ over Kobe.

If LeBron dismantles the Heat just so he can get a couple extra millions dollars, he instantly flips from one to the other in my book.

If this should happen, then what does LeBron want his legacy to be at this point?

Four years ago, he took an effective contract pay cut to go to Miami rather than getting more cash in Cleveland. The results? 2 regular season MVP's, 2 NBA championships and 4 Finals appearances. Now, he's doing the complete 180° and still expecting his championship needs to be fulfilled without any issue.

What's his apparent prowls now? If LeBron did care for championships in today's time space continuum, he'd understand that some players (Duncan) are humble enough to recognize their value to the team, not to their ego, and do what's necessary for his team to compete for championships now. He apparently recognized this four years ago, foregoing contract pay in Cleveland for a chance at championships in Miami, and has forgotten it by now.

And does anyone remember if the Cavaliers ever offered the maximum contract and pay as a last-ditch effort for him to stay there? Or did LeBron not want anything to do with Cleveland during those 2010 negotiations.

I might be wrong here but wasn't Duncan the highest paid player on his team the last few years? LeBron has never been that. I don't know if I can kill the guy for "getting his" after 11 years.

[alxy8s]

Duncan went from a $20M salary to a $10M one when he was 36. James is 29.

[HedleyLamarr]

I don't think anyone disputes LeBron wanting the most money. His skill and talent levels certainly deserve it.

We (except the LeBron jock-sniffers) just don't want LeBron making an hour-long TV special (or hell, even a personal press conference like we see with high school football players picking schools) about him making his choice.

[The_Admiral]

Ooh, good catch! National Signing Day is orders of magnitude more wretched than The Decision was, and those knuckleheads do it every year!

[Lee Noire]

Duncan went from a $20M salary to a $10M one when he was 36. James is 29.

Meaning what exactly? He was still the highest paid on his team.

[alxy8s]

Meaning that comparing the actions of a "humble" Tim Duncan, taking a pay cut at the end of his career, is creating a false equivalency to the situation of a player in the prime of his playing ability and earning potential.

And no, when Duncan took the cut, he dropped below Parker and Ginobili in salaries amongst the Spurs.

[HedleyLamarr]

Ooh, good catch! National Signing Day is orders of magnitude more wretched than The Decision was, and those knuckleheads do it every year!

I don't mind these as much because all parties involved benefit. The college obviously benefits with the player coming in, the athlete gets that "moment in the spotlight" for a few minutes and a fully-paid scholarship, and the high school gets that national exposure. There's no jilted lover at the end. Signing Day is a bit ridiculous at times, but for all involved....it's a positive.

A professional athlete seeking so much attention that he has a TV special to announce his free agency destination....that's over-the-top ridiculous.

[The_Admiral]

There's no jilted lover at the end.

What about the kids who do the fakeouts with other schools, where they reach for one hat and then pick another hat? You have to admit that's a bit much. And unlike LeBron circa Decision, these are people who haven't really achieved anything yet. The kids -- and that's the crux of the biscuit here, they're still kids -- and schools can get all their benefits without the grotesque theatre of National Signing Day.