NHL 2011-2012: Possible Uniform Changes

[BroadwayBlueshirt]

BDGallof BDGallof

by wyshynski

Exclusive: New #isles 3rd jersey will be Black

They're going to announce it at the same time they announce that they're building their new arena right next to Citi Field

[knnhrvy16]

Florida has not made the playoffs in the last 10 years. I don't care what market it is, if your team misses the playoffs for that stretch of time, it will hurt your fan base.

Absolutely, and it's very sad in Florida's case considering how much promise that franchise had in the late-90's. People tend to forget (or never knew it in the first place) that the Panthers have actually been to a Stanley Cup Final. Just think if they had won the cup in '96 or, at the very least, reached another Final down the road. Would thier situation be different today?

As an American, I've always wanted the Sunbelt teams to succeed, so hockey could spread into more areas and become a true continent-encompassing sport. However, despite some success (Florida reaching a Final, Dallas, Carolina, and Tampa Bay each winning a cup), the Sunbelt experiment isn't working out. And in that case, I'm a realist in that I think it's time for some change. If it's not working in places like Phoenix and Florida, let them go someplace where it WILL work, be it Quebec, Hamilton, wherever. I hate to see them go, but perhaps it's for the best. A few years down the road, unless fortunes change for Florida (I think Phoenix is all but gone at this point), Atlanta will not have been the only Sunbelt/Southern casualty. And who's to say by then that other teams like Tampa Bay or Carolina, despite thier success, will be considering thier options as well?

In my honest, personal, and humble opinion, I think we're witnessing a huge shift that Atlanta was only the beginning of. Nashville I think will be okay for now - they look like a team that could be contenders for a few years. I also think Dallas, if they field contenders again, will be okay. All the others...I'm not so certain. Tampa Bay's and Carolina's Cup wins gave them some support and breathing room...but the question is, how long will that last?

Now I'm sounding like a rambling idiot I'm sure, but that's just how I see things for now.

[Drakonius26]

Excellent post. Could not agree more, though there are a few examples where expansion worked. San Jose is a good one.

I'm not crazy about the Sunbelt teams, but Anaheim, Dallas, and San Jose are fine additions. Plus, any team named the Sharks, and ones that have the awesome uniforms they currently sport are good in my book. And although it's not a Sunbelt city, the Colorado Avalanche were a good success story too.

Over a 20 year span, the state of Florida has as many Stanley Cups as Canada. With all of the so called sun belt teams, you have 4 times as many cups as Canada. Dallas, Anaheim, Carolina, Tampa Bay. That isn't a success story? The problems some of the southern teams are having isn'tr because of fan support but bad owners.

Okay, first of all, if those bad owners as you liked to point out, over that same 20 year span, have put a more successful product than the all the Canadian teams combined, where in the hell are those sunbelt hockey fans? Oh, that's right, they aren't there. Plus, as I mentioned before the decline of the Canadian dollar led most of those teams except Toronto to gut most of their rosters during that time, because of how tough it was to get into a bidding war with an American-based franchises. That's why Gary Bettman formed the Canadian Assistance Plan prior to the lockout, and now that the American dollar declining in value and becoming level with the Canadian dollar, along with the hard salary cap, they can compete again. Yes, the Calgary Flames made an amazing run to the Finals in 2004, but since the salary cap era started in 2006, Canadian teams have been in 3 of the 6 Finals, and have had much more success stories than from 1993 to 2004.

[Gothamite]

And that is why the sunbelt strategery has been, on balance, a failure.

[Drakonius26]

Wow... there are some truly stupid people posting in and derailing this thread. First off, let me break it down for the over-sensitive Americans, Canadians, and Sunbelt fans. The whole reason why the Quebec Nordiques and Winnipeg Jets failed was strictly because of the decline of the Canadian Dollar, and not because of fan support. If you're trying to compare their situation with Atlanta or Phoenix, don't because it's the complete opposite with those franchises.

Atlanta, Columbus, Florida, and Phoenix won't survive in the near future mostly because of fan support. I would include Nashville and Tampa Bay, because if they hit a rough patch with their young teams or in case there's a double-dip recession, who knows what will happen.

If you look at the history of expansion in the NHL, the league has never expanded intelligently, whether it was foolishly doubling in size back in 1967, or placing teams in cities where there should've never been a team (Atlanta Flames, Kansas City Scouts, etc.). The push to popularize and expand the NHL's reach into non-traditional markets came not from Gary Bettman, although he was one of the factors, but the main catalyst was when Wayne Gretzky joined the Los Angeles Kings in the late 1980's. At that time, the Kings were the seventh most popular team in the southern california sports market. Well behind the Angels, Dodgers, Lakers, and to a lesser extent Raiders, Rams, and USC Football. Once Wayne Gretzky got traded to the Kings they became the hottest ticket in town and the NHL took notice and believed the Sunbelt, and other warm-weather cities would like this new game, called hockey. Suddenly teams started popping up in Anaheim, Miami, San Jose, Tampa, and in other cities towards the end of the 20th Century. However, once the novelty of having a professional hockey team and an opportunity to see The Great One wore off... well, you can see the result.

Trust me, I don't play favorites when it comes to the United States or Canada, both are good countries with positives and negatives, but that's just the facts right there, and you can choose to acknowledge it or simply think I'm just in it to see Canada get 10+ teams.

While I agree with most of this, I think the problem with hockey in Florida is there's way too much to do in the winter than sit in an arena for three hours, and in the Panthers' case, sit in an arena to watch a home team devoid of superstars. Florida's beautiful in the winter time.

Exactly, so why expand there? It was a novelty thing to have a hockey team in the Miami/South Florida area. Historically speaking, the Miami Dolphins have been the only team that the public embraced down there and they benefited from nearly instant success with three-straight Super Bowl appearance, two Super Bowl championships, and a run of excellence spanning from 1970 to 1995. Yeah, they had a couple of good years after that, 1998, 1999, and 2008... but for the most part, even the Heat, prior to the playoffs had very inconsistent support throughout the regular season. The Marlins... uh, do you want me to go there? I don't think so.

I like Miami, and really the entire state of Florida is nice, but Tampa included, aren't not good sports towns. And based of what I just told you, shouldn't it have occurred to the NHL that a non-traditional sport in a non-traditional market might be a bad idea, with Miami's record?

Atlanta, Columbus, Florida, and Phoenix won't survive in the near future mostly because of fan support. I would include Nashville and Tampa Bay, because if they hit a rough patch with their young teams or in case there's a double-dip recession, who knows what will happen.

To be fair, it should be pointed out that the Blue Jackets are starting to hemorrhage money mainly from a completely terrible arena lease and arena situation in Columbus. The teams' attendance historically hasn't been that bad (over 17,000 every year before the lockout, in the 16,000s the two years immediately after that, a year in the 14,800 range and then two years in the mid 15,000s before this year), but the issue is that the attendance had just been enough to offset the arena deal. Now, with the fan base sick and tired of a :censored:ty team and the attendance subsequently dropping, it's not enough to offset the arena.

With Columbus, the fan base is most definitely there. The issue is getting them back to the arena, and that will happen if Columbus can finally get a winner.

I don't doubt you for one moment, but Columbus is fairly similar to Atlanta, in terms of the team's on-ice performance. That being the case, Columbus isn't a crowded professional sports market like Atlanta is, and while most of us know about the Ohio State Buckeyes football team, and to a lesser extent basketball teams being basically the closest thing to a professional club that Columbus has, I doubt the league will be very merciful if attendance continues to lag, and the arena issue, once again, why Columbus?

I mentioned previously that the NHL has never engaged in a well thought-out expansion process, and Atlanta, Columbus, Florida, and Phoenix is proof of that. Good for the first few years, but not good after that. Also, it does land on the fans too, because beyond the support, how realistic is it to except your expansion team to, let's say, 5 to 7 years be competing for a title? Culturally, more so than other countries, Americans are an instant gratification society that thinks they should have success instantly, or if not, within a half-dozen years. Most of the time, businesses like sports franchises, don't attain success instantly. Take the Patriots, from 1960 to 2000, nothing... one AFL Title Game appearance, and 2 AFC Championships, but mostly nothing. Now, in the 2000's, a ton of success.

[Gothamite]

I still think the NHL thought it was getting Cincinnati and Cleveland in the bargain, "splitting the difference" between them.

If so, didn't work. Was never going to work. But it seems plausible, given the NHL's track record.

[BLUELANDbeliever]

Atlanta, Columbus, Florida, and Phoenix won't survive in the near future mostly because of fan support. I would include Nashville and Tampa Bay, because if they hit a rough patch with their young teams or in case there's a double-dip recession, who knows what will happen.

False. Atlanta was never given a fair chance. Bad ownership is not a fair chance. While yes, its obvious that the thrash are no more, don't blame the fans. The players know/knew the owners are bad, the fans know, and Bettman knows (as if that matters).

[IceCap]

I still think the NHL thought it was getting Cincinnati and Cleveland in the bargain, "splitting the difference" between them.

If so, didn't work. Was never going to work. But it seems plausible, given the NHL's track record.

To be fair part of the blame falls on Cleveland fans refusing to acknowledge the rest of Ohio exists.

[BBTV]

I still think the NHL thought it was getting Cincinnati and Cleveland in the bargain, "splitting the difference" between them.

If so, didn't work. Was never going to work. But it seems plausible, given the NHL's track record.

To be fair part of the blame falls on Cleveland fans refusing to acknowledge the rest of Ohio exists.

Why should someone in one market automatically have to root for a team in a completely separate market just because of an (essentially) arbitrarily-decided-upon state boundary? If I'm in Cleveland, that's not my team.

Off topic edit: until this post, I had no idea that metro Cleveland was no longer the largest metro area in Ohio, and that it now trails Cincinnati. I knew Cleveland was hemorrhaging population and businesses, but I didn't realize that it had fallen that far.

[hawk36]

Hearing rumors up here regarding Seattle NHL in 2012 (Phoenix move?). Anyone outside of the area hearing this? Would be great to revive the old Seattle Metropolitans who won the Stanley Cup back in 1917.

[rams80]

Hearing rumors up here regarding Seattle NHL in 2012 (Phoenix move?). Anyone outside of the area hearing this? Would be great to revive the old Seattle Metropolitans who won the Stanley Cup back in 1917.

They need a new arena.

[BLUELANDbeliever]

Hearing rumors up here regarding Seattle NHL in 2012 (Phoenix move?). Anyone outside of the area hearing this? Would be great to revive the old Seattle Metropolitans who won the Stanley Cup back in 1917.

wishful thinking. they got a TON of work to do

[hawk36]

Hearing rumors up here regarding Seattle NHL in 2012 (Phoenix move?). Anyone outside of the area hearing this? Would be great to revive the old Seattle Metropolitans who won the Stanley Cup back in 1917.

wishful thinking. they got a TON of work to do

Understood but isn't 18,000 in Seattle at the Key Arena better than whatever Phoenix is drawing (12,000)? Rumors say something about a new arena in Bellevue area across the lake from Seattle. Been something we've heard for years regarding bringing the Sonics back but this is the first I've heard regarding the NHL.

[rams80]

Hearing rumors up here regarding Seattle NHL in 2012 (Phoenix move?). Anyone outside of the area hearing this? Would be great to revive the old Seattle Metropolitans who won the Stanley Cup back in 1917.

wishful thinking. they got a TON of work to do

Understood but isn't 18,000 in Seattle at the Key Arena better than whatever Phoenix is drawing? Rumors say something about a new arena in Bellevue area across the lake from Seattle. Been something we've heard for years regarding bringing the Sonics back but this is the first I've heard regarding the NHL.

Presented for your consideration, Key Arena's hockey configuration:

This is a non-starter until somebody builds an arena there.

[OMMF]

Hearing rumors up here regarding Seattle NHL in 2012 (Phoenix move?). Anyone outside of the area hearing this? Would be great to revive the old Seattle Metropolitans who won the Stanley Cup back in 1917.

wishful thinking. they got a TON of work to do

Understood but isn't 18,000 in Seattle at the Key Arena better than whatever Phoenix is drawing (12,000)? Rumors say something about a new arena in Bellevue area across the lake from Seattle. Been something we've heard for years regarding bringing the Sonics back but this is the first I've heard regarding the NHL.

You couldn't get 18000 in KeyArena if you let them stand on the ice. It holds a tad over 12000 for hockey and about 2000 aren't going to be able to see the South goal.

[hawk36]

Hearing rumors up here regarding Seattle NHL in 2012 (Phoenix move?). Anyone outside of the area hearing this? Would be great to revive the old Seattle Metropolitans who won the Stanley Cup back in 1917.

wishful thinking. they got a TON of work to do

Understood but isn't 18,000 in Seattle at the Key Arena better than whatever Phoenix is drawing (12,000)? Rumors say something about a new arena in Bellevue area across the lake from Seattle. Been something we've heard for years regarding bringing the Sonics back but this is the first I've heard regarding the NHL.

You couldn't get 18000 in KeyArena if you let them stand on the ice. It holds a tad over 12000 for hockey and about 2000 aren't going to be able to see the South goal.

Ah didn't realize. Just figured it would be similar to basketball. My mistake. Still, IF there is a new arena in the works, wouldn't it make sense to have a team here in a "lame duck" arena awaiting a new arena nearby instead of a "lame duck" team awaiting a new city altogether? Just thinking out loud. And hoping.

[fuzzy510]

Hearing rumors up here regarding Seattle NHL in 2012 (Phoenix move?). Anyone outside of the area hearing this? Would be great to revive the old Seattle Metropolitans who won the Stanley Cup back in 1917.

wishful thinking. they got a TON of work to do

Understood but isn't 18,000 in Seattle at the Key Arena better than whatever Phoenix is drawing (12,000)? Rumors say something about a new arena in Bellevue area across the lake from Seattle. Been something we've heard for years regarding bringing the Sonics back but this is the first I've heard regarding the NHL.

You couldn't get 18000 in KeyArena if you let them stand on the ice. It holds a tad over 12000 for hockey and about 2000 aren't going to be able to see the South goal.

Ah didn't realize. Just figured it would be similar to basketball. My mistake. Still, IF there is a new arena in the works, wouldn't it make sense to have a team here in a "lame duck" arena awaiting a new arena nearby instead of a "lame duck" team awaiting a new city altogether? Just thinking out loud. And hoping.

Yes, but only if the new arena is signed, sealed, and delivered. No chance that a team moves to Seattle to play in KeyArena on the promise of a new arena alone.

[Drakonius26]

I still think the NHL thought it was getting Cincinnati and Cleveland in the bargain, "splitting the difference" between them.

If so, didn't work. Was never going to work. But it seems plausible, given the NHL's track record.

Uh, yeah... Cincinnati and Cleveland would never come together for a common team, no matter what. The NHL thinking that they could draw some hockey fans from Cincinnati, Cleveland, and Columbus to make it a regional team is a really shoddy assumption. If that's what qualifies for a market in the NHL, they should've never expanded in the first place, because that's just grasping for straws right there.

Atlanta, Columbus, Florida, and Phoenix won't survive in the near future mostly because of fan support. I would include Nashville and Tampa Bay, because if they hit a rough patch with their young teams or in case there's a double-dip recession, who knows what will happen.

False. Atlanta was never given a fair chance. Bad ownership is not a fair chance. While yes, its obvious that the thrash are no more, don't blame the fans. The players know/knew the owners are bad, the fans know, and Bettman knows (as if that matters).

True. Atlanta was given a chance (twice) and refused to support the team both times, even more so the second time around. This is the same crap Seattle Supersonic fans voiced once their team was moved, bad ownership, evil commissioner, lousy on-ice/on-court product, and yet they never came out to support the team or voice their support until it was a done deal they'd actually relocate.

Take a look at this... http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance ... now do you honestly think that even without any local groups stepping up or going through the appropriate channels to buy the team, Atlanta should've remained there? No, I think not. There are non-Canadian teams on there, with a lesser product than you that actually had better fan support and lesser ownership, so don't give me that crap.

[Morgan33]

Is there any way this thread could be dedicated to the aesthetics of hockey as opposed to "which is the better city to support a hockey team." I keep clicking this thread in the hopes of seeing a Panthers leak and all I get is this tired argument...

[Drakonius26]

Speaking of aesthetics, once the Board of Governors approve Atlanta's relocation to Winnipeg, how soon do we think it'll be before we learn the new identity of the Winnipeg NHL team?

I'm assuming it'll be much more thought out than the NBA-OKC disaster was a few years ago.