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11 minutes ago, Still MIGHTY said:

 

Oh. Oh god. The sweet, sweet, sweet irony.

you should really look up words before you use them. 

 

11 minutes ago, Still MIGHTY said:

 

No one will be thinking about this in 10 years.

you seriously don't think people are going to question the supposed dominance of a guy that made 8 consecutive Finals but only has 3 rings to show for it? 

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I'm enthused that a Patriots fan is unaware that a division or conference full of other teams not being capable, over the course of 15+ years, of building a team both physically but also mentally talented enough to knock off the favorite isn't something that the favorite has to apologize for.

 

I mean, the AFC East since 2001. FFS man. Nobody knocks Tom Brady or Bill Belichick's legacy for this stuff, even though it's accepted knowledge that the Patriots have benefited immensely from those three teams' general suckage over the years in the form of better seeding, bye weeks, and home-field advantage in the playoffs year after year. You won't apologize for it, the Patriots won't apologize for it, and nor should you. It's not their fault. They're the beneficiaries of circumstance.

 

And so is Lebron. He'd be a fool to go to the West if he sees better opportunities to win championships in the East. 

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16 minutes ago, ozzyman314 said:

You can repeat the same garbage over and over, it doesn't mean :censored: when you are deliberately ignoring the facts.

 

Huh. Funny how that works. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's a picture I drew of Lebron James on my tablet. 

 

lebron_james_dribbble.png

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4 minutes ago, ozzyman314 said:

you seriously don't think people are going to question the supposed dominance of a guy that made 8 consecutive Finals but only has 3 rings to show for it? 

Probably not because his win in Cleveland (where he led the Cavs to victory from down 3-1 against the greatest regular season team in history) will go down as one of the greatest NBA Finals of all time. 

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6 minutes ago, ozzyman314 said:

you should really look up words before you use them. 

 

And you should really quit while you're behind.

 

6 minutes ago, ozzyman314 said:

you seriously don't think people are going to question the supposed dominance of a guy that made 8 consecutive Finals but only has 3 rings to show for it? 

 

No. Because we'll just recognize he's great, if not the greatest, and not wring our hands over this sort of petty, bitter, sour grapes bull :censored: .

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Let's see: LeBron has had to face the Spurs dynasty, Warriors dynasty, a good Dallas team and a good OKC team. I think 3 titles is pretty good considering the opposition.

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2 minutes ago, Kramerica Industries said:

I'm enthused that a Patriots fan is unaware that a division or conference full of other teams not being capable, over the course of 15+ years, of building a team both physically but also mentally talented enough to knock off the favorite isn't something that the favorite has to apologize for.

 

I mean, the AFC East since 2001. FFS man. Nobody knocks Tom Brady or Bill Belichick's legacy for this stuff, even though it's accepted knowledge that the Patriots have benefited immensely from those three teams' general suckage over the years in the form of better seeding, bye weeks, and home-field advantage in the playoffs year after year. You won't apologize for it, the Patriots won't apologize for it, and nor should you. It's not their fault. Their the beneficiaries of circumstance.

 

And so is Lebron. He'd be a fool to go to the West if he sees better opportunities to win championships in the East. 

The Patriots dominance in their division is part of my point actually. Lauding Lebron for his "8 straight finals" is like lauding The Patriots for their 16 division titles since 2018. 

It's not worth bragging about when you realize the lack of competition they faced to reach that. 

 

11 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

Probably not because his win in Cleveland (where he led the Cavs to victory from down 3-1 agaknst the greatest regular season team in history) will go down as one of the greatest NBA Finals of all time. 

No one outside of Lebron fanboys are going to care so much about that 1 title. 

 

6 minutes ago, Still MIGHTY said:

No. Because we'll just recognize he's great, if not the greatest, and not wring our hands over this sort of petty, bitter, sour grapes bull :censored: .

So you'd rather ignore all the facts and circumstances regarding his accomplishments and just blindly, unquestionably accept them?

That's not smart, or healthy. 

 

2 minutes ago, Wings said:

Let's see: LeBron has had to face the Spurs dynasty, Warriors dynasty, a good Dallas team and a good OKC team. I think 3 titles is pretty good considering the opposition.

And now imagine him have to face those teams in the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd round of The playoffs every year? Does he still dominate and make The Finals every year like in The East? 

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11 minutes ago, Wings said:

Let's see: LeBron has had to face the Spurs dynasty, Warriors dynasty, a good Dallas team and a good OKC team. I think 3 titles is pretty good considering the opposition.

If anything, that'll be underplayed.  While I don't think that many people will remember how good the East was/wasn't, they also won'd remember that he went up against some really, really good teams in the Finals.  Golden State and San Antonio, in particular. He and his team should have beaten Dallas and OKC.  So the Dallas thing hurts.

 

But ten years from now, he'll be 3-6 (or maybe 3-8 or something) and 2007 will essentially be held against him just as much as 2011.  We don't have the will to discuss nuance to give him a break for difficult circumstances, like a top-5 player signing with a 73-win team.  And we certainly don't have the will to get into how great his conferene titles are vis a vis the rest of  the conference.  Overall, these things are kind of a wash or maybe will even do his Legacy a disservice (3-6!  Not as good as Kobe).  

 

I've always been of two unpopular opinions: 1) circumstances matter and 2) 0-1 in the finals is better than 0-0.

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23 minutes ago, ozzyman314 said:

So you'd rather ignore all the facts and circumstances regarding his accomplishments and just blindly, unquestionably accept them?

That's not smart, or healthy.

 

(Sigh... why do I bother engaging...) No, that's not what I'm doing. What I'm doing is using what I've seen with my own two eyes and recognizing how incredible LeBron is and what he's done and not giving myself an aneurysm over a basketball player.

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Why does it need to be one or the other? Bringing a title to Cleveland in '16 and making eight consecutive Finals is a hell of an accomplishment. Even if he ends up with a 3-6 Finals record, the fact he even has a Finals record puts him in company with the truly elite players that make most people's Top 10. At the same time, if you're debating the GOAT aspect, a higher ratio of runner up finishes and circumstances of the league do add the context and make it more convincing for the "MJ is the best" crowd.

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How is this still happening? Why is it still happening?

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Wilt was 2-4 in the Finals and was even more dominant than Lebron was while playing for arguably even crappier teams.  Yet, he has always carried the label of a choker and some (morons) don't even consider him a top 10 player of all time.  I think there is an expectation that when you are the best of your era, that you will find a way to win the big game at any cost.  Messi always gets flack for not winning a World Cup; it may seem unfair, but I suppose it comes with the territory.

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14 minutes ago, Still MIGHTY said:

 

(Sigh... why do I bother engaging...) No, that's not what I'm doing. What I'm doing is using what I've seen with my own two eyes and recognizing how incredible LeBron is and what he's done and not giving myself an aneurysm over a basketball player.

We already know how amazing Lebron, that's nothing new. 

But you need to acknowledge the circumstances behind those accolades too. You can't just look at "8 straight"  as some major accomplishment for him without looking at the other side of it and seeing The "competition" he had to get there. 

9 minutes ago, Alex Houston said:

Why does it need to be one or the other? Bringing a title to Cleveland in '16 and making eight consecutive Finals is a hell of an accomplishment. Even if he ends up with a 3-6 Finals record, the fact he even has a Finals record puts him in company with the truly elite players that make most people's Top 10. At the same time, if you're debating the GOAT aspect, a higher ratio of runner up finishes and circumstances of the league do add the context and make it more convincing for the "MJ is the best" crowd.

Why can't it be, "Yeah Lebron is one of the all time greats, but his dominance is a bit inflated because he played in the weaker conference while The Stronger teams were out West" why is a simple fact like that so blasphemous?  

 

8 minutes ago, Red Wolf said:

How is this still happening? Why is it still happening?

Because people can't handle criticism of Lebron. 

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Here's another question to you then, @ozzyman314:

 

Why do we have to qualify his success? Why can't his success just be his success without it being so blasphemous to you?

 

As @Alex Houston said, why does it need to be one or the other?

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3 minutes ago, Still MIGHTY said:

Here's another question to you then, @ozzyman314:

 

Why do we have to qualify his success? Why can't his success just be his success without it being so blasphemous to you?

 

As @Alex Houston said, why does it need to be one or the other?

Because blindly lauding achievements without actually looking at the details and what they had to go through to accomplish it is ridiculous the the kind of thing only ignorant fanboys do. 

 

You look at something like "8 straight Finals" Normally that would be really impressive, but when you realize it's Lebron that did it against an East he's had by the balls since 2011, and look at the teams he beat to accomplish that, it's really not that surprising or amazing. 

Dominating against weak competition that aren't even close to your level isn't that impressive. 

Dominating against strong teams that still offer you a real challenge is amazing. 

 

Why should I be impressed by him dominating a conference that been his to dominate for the past near decade?  

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And why does that bother you, @ozzyman314? Why did you decide now you have to bear the mantle of trying to take LeBron down?

 

Seems to me it bothers you because you're an opposing fanboy. LeBron is lauded for nearly single-handedly beating your Celtics, and you feel the need to counteract that for three days now with "well, he's actually not that great."

 

Look, I'm no LeBron fanboy. Hell, I'm barely an NBA fan. When I paid more everyday attention, I too was a LeBron hater even through the Miami years. But like, c'mon, dude. Real recognize real. LeBron has established himself as one of, if not the, greatest of all time. In the modern era, no matter who the hell you're playing, making eight consecutive Finals is remarkable.

 

And if you can't handle that, then well, idk what to tell you, man. Vaya con dios.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, who do you think said:

If LeBron's 8 straight finals appearances are suspect due to his competition then so are the Celtics' 8 straight championships in the 60s.

Sure, but context is important. 

 

20 minutes ago, Still MIGHTY said:

And why does that bother you, @ozzyman314? Why did you decide now you have to bear the mantle of trying to take LeBron down?

 

Seems to me it bothers you because you're an opposing fanboy. LeBron is lauded for nearly single-handedly beating your Celtics, and you feel the need to counteract that for three days now with "well, he's actually not that great."

 

Look, I'm no LeBron fanboy. Hell, I'm barely an NBA fan. When I paid more everyday attention, I too was a LeBron hater even through the Miami years. But like, c'mon, dude. Real recognize real. LeBron has established himself as one of, if not the, greatest of all time. In the modern era, no matter who the hell you're playing, making eight consecutive Finals is remarkable.

 

And if you can't handle that, then well, idk what to tell you, man. Vaya con dios.

 

 

Yeah, surely it has nothing to do with the fact Lebron just made his eighth straight final with such a trash team. 

 

I do recognize Lebron is one the greats. But you can’t just blindly laude his accomplishments. 

 

I’m sorry but When you’re Lebron, making The Finals 8 straight years in a conference that hasn’t offered you a significant challenge since 2012, to the point where you’re willingly handicapping yourself with such a bad team,  that’s really not as major an accomplishment as you would think. 

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Has anything like this ever happened in the history of this forum? A sports argument like this carrying on for page after page after page when one person is (presumably, I’ve barely read any of it) just digging themselves deeper into a hole and clearly on the losing side?

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Three teams in the Eastern Conference made the 1992 Playoffs with sub-.500 records.  Shouldn't that be held against Jordan with this criteria?

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