Bonds Smacks Hr #660

[DEAD!]

could I ask this, how many of you got to see this guy do the things he's doing LIVE and IN PERSON?

Me, I have, many times. I was there for #600 as well

oh this just in: the guy who caught the homerun in mccovey cove yesterday as well as tonight pilots a blue kayak and wears a mask of our beloved GOVERNATOR!

I actually did once, on vacation in San Francisco in August 2001 against Florida. Bonds hit 2 HR's including the game winning HR. I remember that second HR had some significance, but I can't remember what it was.

[See Red]

Well, it can be debated for ever. Lol. Good points, paynomind.

There is no true answer, I guess... but it's been fun discussing. I think it was so easy because the rest of the league was watered down.

I kid, I kid. That is true, but think about if Bonds was only walked as many times as Babe Ruth or Hank Aaron were on a yearly basis. That would be atleast 10 more home runs in a year.

And once again, i don't think you can fault Bonds for how he was brought up and the progression of the game in which really, throughout High School and even little league... you're either a pitcher, or a fielder.

[Shmee]

Hmmm....this topic is a little outdated now. Bonds went and whacked Home Run #661 a little while ago. Whoops!

[Sterling84]

Ummm, this is way late, and I dont know baseball or the numbers like you guys....but I find the whole thing amusing.

I don't care whether Barry is the best ever, whether someone calls him the best ever, or poses any other impossibly open-ended question. You guys should go have beer and talk about it. I will say this though.......he's the kind of guy who'd leave an all-star game in the 3rd inning.......I kinda think thats lame. But lots of players do that now.......and are hence.......all lame. And I know he's racking up large numbers, but how big IS that 73, when everyone hits 50+? I'm asking. I dont know that you can grade current numbers against old ones. Such a different time.

But my main point is I really, again as a baseball outsider, think it's hysterical when people argue that there is no proof these guys are on 'roids / and that the aforementioned roids they aren't on, don't help them hit HRs anyway. I don't need proof. I use the ummm, eyes and the rules of the world I've seen my whole life to determine that big huge people are stronger than little ones. I see old baseball cards of Bonds, Big Mack, Sosa and they are built like Urkel, and nowadays they look like friggin trucks. Pretty self explanatory. If you can't see that, you aren't wanting to see that. Plus, while power alone has NEVER been the key to hitting a baseball.....(absolutely correct on your guys part) doesn't it certainly stand to reason that once you do make contact......the ball's gonna go that much further? Pop outs will likely remain pop outs........liners will remain liners and grounders will remain grounders........but you dont think ANY of whaqt used to be Warning track deep flies will now carry on out cause you are stronger? PUH Lease.

I think for average home gym losers like us, sure. You can gulp the stacker2, hit the free weights and end up hurting your athletic performance by losing flexibility/speed/whatever. But these guys.......no way. Some Tae Bo super trainer MF is teaching him how to bulk up and retain his speed and all with a complex training regiment and focusing on this muscle or that. The "it doesnt help anyway" argument just doesn't pass the sniff test no matter how much science you throw around. Doesn't do anything? Then Barry. Tell me this? why are you big then? So you can take up more of the outfield? Explain it to me. If hulking out doesnt help you hit the HRs, then what the hell? What DOES it do? Why did Giambi lose 30 pounds in the offseason? Hmmmm. Cycling off roids much? I'm sure that COULDNT be it. Look its not like I'm a detective........its just .....right there.

Plus, like Mockba said..........screw HRs anyway. When did they decide who was good and who wasn't? My man Molitor couldnt go yard, and he found a way to do pretty well roughly 3000 times.

But before you yell at me.......consider this. I dont care. Serious. I think steroids are great. So I dont condemn the man simply for that. Heck! Do em. THey shrink your nuts, give you zits, give you a temper, and possibly kill you in the end or when its super hot, so if you want to do that, just so you can hit a little ball further over a wall and be a big man......be my guest. Level the playing field my arse. If you ain't cheatin, you ain't trying I always say. I say legalize it.....lets see how big we can get these wackos shall we? I want it, so Bonds can break my back just by flexing his trapezoids. And so that even when he gets hit by a pitch it boings off his chest and over the fence.

ANyway, you guys are having fun arguing baseball and arguing baseball is a god-given right so go ahead. I'm sorry to be dumb in the way of this thread. But debate numbers and validity and importance of those numbers and eras all you want. But don't insult us by pretending the man ain't (or wasnt) on the juice. If he's your hero or something.......I understand. Learning your hero's are arsehole or a cheater is tough to take. But that true for just about anyone if you admire them from afar. The more your idols crash and burn, the more you die inside and grow up and realize nobodys any better than you are. ..................

Doesn't help you hit HRs? HA! .............I have some riverfront propery I might be interested in putting for sale on this thread.

[JQK]

Ruth is the greatest player in history and it is not arguable. He changed the game completely. Bonds is mearly playing the sport that Ruth created. And are you kidding me with the "Ruth was playing in a weak era"? He was playing in ballparks who's outfields had distances of 500ft, and he was also playing in the deadball era, and also, the baseball that was made back then was made with a very loose horsehide cover, which made it harder to hit out of the park. Let's not forget that Ruth also was one of the greatest pitchers of the era, and his stats STILL are impressive. His pitching stats are better than Pedro Martinez's.

Ruth IS baseball. Bonds will never BE baseball...

[paynomind]

Sterling, I'm with ya on the roids issue. But that topic is non-debatable. I think he's sipping more juice than Mr. Welch's himself. But someone else might say no. End of discussion. Actually, what is interesting, is most folks who will argue with ya when you say, "Bonda is on steroids" wont say, "no, he's not" they will say, "you haven't injected his body with them yourself, so how do you KNOW he is?" or the even funnier, "it wouldn't help anyway." Point being, the roid issue turns into "yes he is." "No, he isn't. " "Yeah, he is!" "No he aint!"

As far as the Bonds vs Ruth debate, it is fun. I like it. It was entertaining, and I could actually see some of the counterpoints. I love when we on the baord get into a real discussion, a point-counterpoint that doesn't degrade into name calling. Thats awesome to me. (mostly because sometimes it is ME who name calls. Sorry about that uconn thing again)

Some more stats for ya..

-in 1935, when Ruth stopped playing, he had 714 HRs. The second all-time? Jimmy Fox. 302. Ruth doubled up the second place guy.

- Ruth hit for 60+ more points than the league average, Barry 32 points over the league average.

-Barry will step to the plate far more times than Ruth, he already has a 1500 more at bats... 7217 for Ruth, 8747 already for Bonds

- Their walks are surprisingly SIMILAR numbers - 2078 for Bonds, 2062 for Ruth.

- In 1927, when the Babe hit 60, he out homered every team in the American League, except for his Yankees (and that was only because Gehrig hit 47) and the St. Louis Browns (72)

- Career BA Ruth 342 Bonds 289

- Career Slugging Ruth 690 Bond 603

- Career OB Ruth 474 Bonds 434

- Some stats for Ruth and Bonds after their first 6 seasons in MLB.

----------AB------TB------- BB-------HR---------------------------------

Ruth----1110----284-------190-------49

Bonds--3110---1509-------484-----142

Ruth got off to a slow offensive numbers start. Why? Because he was busy pitching! I don't want to bring the pitching back in, just pointing out that he lost some offensive numbers due to it.

Anyway... I have had fun with this.

The debate that I think could really get interesting would be Teddy Ballgame vs. Ruth. Hmm...

[jkrdevil]

Good stats Paynomind, the walks are interesting since Ruth was walked that many times with Lou Gerhig (A player who would have had 500+ home runs had he not been not had ALS) hitting behind him for all of those years.

The Pac Bell park being a pitchers park is a stupid statement. Are you saying if the fences were in a little bit Bonds would be hitting over 300 home runs a year. Becuase that is what it would take to out homer every other team, a feat Ruth did more than 1 time. Ballparks back then were much bigger then. Dead Centerfield was 463 ft away in Old Yankee Stadium. Is there any ballpark that has that today.

By the way does any one know if Ruth still hold the record for most consecutive shutout innings pitched in the World Series. I can't remember if it was broken recently or not.

[paynomind]

I thought it was whitey ford who broke that streak.

[See Red]

Babe Ruth was never walked half as many times in a season as Bonds has been for the past couple of years.

Barry Bonds is the only reason the Giants have amounted to anything in the past few years. Pitchers also pitched the ball slower when Babe Ruth played. Give Barry Bonds consistently 80-85 MPH fastballs and breaking balls that broke half as much as they do now and you don't think he could hit it 500 feet? Please. Pitchers have gotten FAR better since Bonds stepped into the game and once again... Ruth never had to hit against a minority pitcher. You can't say a player is the best. Barry Bonds recorded the highest OSP percentage ever. Barry Bonds hit 73 Home Run's in the best pitchers ball park in the league. Barry Bonds plays against the best players in the WORLD... not the best white players! The best players in todays game are minorities!

Don't even compare Ruth to Pedro because a number have changes have taken effect since Ruth quit pitching. The strike zone has been reduced, the mound has been lowered... Ruth wouldn't even be good enough to be a modern era pitcher.

And in response to Sterling...

1. I don't see how you can justify judging that a man is on steroids without any proof.

Barry Bonds would be a small football player. I already mentioned the rookie safety out of Miami that is bigger than Bonds. Defensive backs are one of the smaller positions on the field. Sterling, tell me this. How can you justify Barry Bonds as being THAT big when he's smaller than 20% of MLB players. 6'2", 225 isn't THAT big.

• Ray Lewis - 6'1", 245
  
• Terrell Owens - 6'3", 230
  
• Lebron James - 6'7", 245, 6.7% body fat
  
• Freddy Jones - 6'4", 260
  
• Thomas Jones - 5'10", 220
  
• Michael Pittman - 6', 218
  

And that's just a few players that would dwarf Barry Bonds. I can name MANY more.

You don't think it's possible to gain muscle in your 30's? Wrong. It's pretty much not possible to gain muscle mass in your 30's but you can get bigger and stronger. There's no way to prove that Barry Bonds has gained muscle mass because nobody has ever measured it before.

Bonds can afford the best trainers in the game. You don't think a 30 year old man with as much work ethic as anyone in the game can gain that much weight? Steroids aren't the only things a player can do to increase size. Legal supplements exist such as creatine and is used by kids as young as High School. Barry Bonds already admitted to using creatine. My friend has been lifting for a year and a half with help from JUST creatine and he's about 6'2, 220 and he's still a Senior in High School.

Not only are legal supplements getting better, but the equipment is better and the weightrooms the players have access to in college are huge. I can only imagine how big a professional teams weightroom is.

2. Why does Bonds get so big if it doesn't help his swing that much?

Why do people that don't play ANY sport at all lift? That's not a fair point. Muscle obviously hasn't decreased bat speed, so why not lift if it doesn't hurt anything?

Leg strength can increase speed, jumping, and other things that may be factored into a game. Also, the stronger you are, the less prone you are to injuries. However, despite strength, when you take steroids, that makes you prone to injuries! How often is Bonds on the DL? Not very many considering 3 of the last 4 years Bonds has played over 143 games. And remember, Bonds missed ALOT of time last year due to personal problems involving the death of his father, and he still played in 130 games.

And I can't see Giambi having lost 30 lbs. in the off-season considering he's still 230 lbs.

[jkrdevil]

Bonds can afford the best trainers in the game.

I find that ironic you said that, since his trainer is currently being indicted for steroids. And one of the main charges is giving them to ball players most notibly Bonds. For all we know his trainer couls have already givenup Bonds, we just don't know that because grad jury testimony is sealed. We will know in the future as the case will move into open court. But there is some sort of evidence against Bonds and ther players or the grand jury wouldn't want the drug test from last year.

[See Red]

What's an even more embarrassing thing to happen with the whole steroid incident is the leaking of 'private' information in the case. That's FAR worse than steroid use. All I'm saying is you guys can't say Bonds did anything because no matter what his trainer did... you have ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF!

[Joshawaggie]

this discussion will probably never end... it should probably be closed before someone's feelings gets hurt and cries.

[NJTank]

It does look like Bonds did Steroids and truth be told he probablly did, but until he is caught and their is proof he does deserve at least the benefit of the doubt like.

Our legal system is Innocent until Proven Guilty.

[-kj]

And regardless of his steroid use, Babe is still better. (And the YankMes are still evil.)

[Sterling84]

And in response to Sterling...

Well, I really tried to stay far away from insulting but maybe I did anyway. Sorry. Look the guy is obviousy a helluva player. He rarely strikes out....specially for a HR hitter. he's good. He's better than good.

But for all the backup, your argument still seems to strike me as that of a serious serious fan.....and thats kind of like the parent who can't see their kid is a stoner......ya know? When its beyond obvious to everyone else? Can't see the forest, for the trees.......thats the phrase.

Shall I list all the things I have confidence in that I didn't "see" happen? Course not. We'd be here all day. And I didn't mean he was a bigger man than most athletes....he's way bigger now than HE was. Abnormally so. Like he hit puberty twice, once when he was 31.

Remember, lots of football players, pro wrestlers and other athletes (in leagues with real drug policies) said one thing for years and years (and even testified to the fact) and have now changed their stories and said......."ok....yeah, duh. Of course we were juicing."

Again, I am actually not against performance enhancing. Lifting weights is performance enhancing too. So is practicing. Dude wants to risk his body to be better, best of luck. (I'm all for breast implants too! Go that extra mile girl!)

Again, I'm not judging the dude. Its not my place. I'm of the mind that all substances are (or should be) legal. Its your body, your risk, your life. And I have no opinion on whom is/was better. athletics is a year round job now....it wasnt then. The balls were dead, the pitching was (not as fast) but rotations were probably deeper. I think there are compelling arguments as to why ole players couldnt hack it today physically and equally compelling ones of why todays candy asses couldnt hack it back then. THAT, as I said, is the fun part and I've enjoyed reading both sides.

But I'm also all about telling people its your body and to shut the heck up. If Clinton had said, YES I inhaled. Who hasnt? I wouldve loved that dude. But he didn't. Barry shouldnt dance around this until he's forced to move one way or the other. He should say........YES! I love hitting HRs.....I love being rich, I want to play as long as possible and therefore, I take all kinds of crap to keep me fit. Now back off sucka!" Just like that wussy Sosa shouldnt have made lame excuses about practice corked bats. What a retard. Where are the stand up men in sports who dont take guff or apologize? Lord.

[winters in buffalo]

Ruth didn't have the kind of training, conditioning (and juice) that today's players do.

He hit 714 HRs and spent the rest of his time drinking, smoking, eating and screwing. If he had access to the kind of conditioning that Bonds does, he'd easily outpace the best in the game today.

[IronChefShark]

this just in....off of David Wells....

666!

[NJTank]

Wow he is on fire its amazing that he is hititng .500 so far if he keeps this up all year he may hit .400 wow.

[See Red]

Ruth didn't have the kind of training, conditioning (and juice) that today's players do.

He hit 714 HRs and spent the rest of his time drinking, smoking, eating and screwing. If he had access to the kind of conditioning that Bonds does, he'd easily outpace the best in the game today.

and neither did the rest of the MLB.

[shiznit1083]

You know what really sucks about this whole thing? The fact that Bonds may not have taken steriods and we were so caught up in if he did or didn't that we may have missed the career of one of the greatest ballplayers ever.

Granted Ruth was a helluva ballyplayer, but the guys back then served up meatballs compared to some of the stuff these guys are throwing nowadays.

One more thing, Bonds probably was on the juice, but juice doesn't give you the ability to get a ball low in the strike zone or draw as many walks as he does. If the juice did that much for you, then why haven't Sheffield, Benetiz, and Giambi come close to 70?