2014 NFL Season Thread

[IceCap]

But Brady's Super Bowls also came when he wasn't the central element to his teams success. Those early Brady-Patriots teams were built to win games defensively and run the ball offensively. As the team has shifted to become more reliant on the Brady-led offense, they haven't won a Super Bowl.

Again, I point to late-game heroics against the Rams and Panthers. Say what you will, that was clutch quarterbacking. What happened when the Colts needed that out of Manning against the Saints? A pick six that sealed the game for the other team.

Also, that Broncos team wasn't making a game of that Super Bowl regardless of who their QB was. The defense was decimated by injuries to key players, they lost their LT for the season and the offensive line played atrocious, and even if they had been healthy, the Seahawks were just way better and came into that game with way more intensity. And even beyond all that, Seattle played a defensive style that the Broncos just didn't match up well against.

A few points.

That Broncos team, despite their injuries, still handled Brady's Patriots with relative ease in the AFC Championship game. Did they have to contend with injuries? Yeah. They also made it to the Super Bowl, which was no small accomplishment in and of itself. This wasn't a team firing on all cylinders until a couple of untimely injuries led to an early playoff exit. They adapted and made it to the big dance. I don't buy the "what do you expect, the defence was injured?" excuse.

As for intensity...isn't that what we were debating about Tom Brady? That he has an intensity that Peyton Manning just lacked? And now the excuse is "well the Broncos couldn't have won, the Seahawks were just too intense"? Sorry, that doesn't play either. Peyton Manning, if he truly belongs in the GOAT discussion, should be able to get his team psyched up for the G-ddamn Super Bowl.

And the Broncos not matching up well with the Seahawks? A lot of Manning's praise is centred around his intellect. He's a smart QB. He's able to study and pick apart defences. The Broncos not matching up against the Seahawks seems to be a point against Manning, not a defence of him.

Food for thought. I brought up that Brady hasn't won in ten years because it seems Tom Brady fans harp on Manning's playoff failures while ignoring Brady's.

I never ignored Brady's ten year drought. I simply pointed out that it doesn't erase his three wins from the record books. As for the ten year thing? It's been ten years since Brady won a ring, but he's still an elite NFL quarterback. Manning's ten year mark gets here in two years. Look at how Manning's career has gone lately. Will he still be playing at an "elite" level in two years? Will he be playing at all?

None of that matters to me. I don't care about the narrative or where each player was drafted or that Peyton Manning is Archie's son or a traditional NFL QB while Brady isn't (but he pretty much is) or that Peyton is a hardcore republican (something I normally wouldn't get behind). It's that I've watched these guys through their whole careers and I'd take Peyton Manning because I believe he is better at the position than Tom Brady, who is also very good.

I tend to look at a guy like Peyton Manning and downplay him in comparison to someone I honestly believe is better.

[Kramerica Industries]

I really don't have the energy to delve full-on into this discussion, but I do have to speak up about the "intensity" buzzword that seems to be making its rounds here. This is the first place I've ever seen where there is any thinking that Peyton Manning "lacks" intensity, in any context. Of all the possible items I could think of that would tip the scales in Brady's favor in this debate, "intensity" would be a push. Both of them have gotten to where they are in their careers with the help of their fierce competitiveness. "Intensity" strikes me as nothing more than a hollow intangible that can be used, disposed, and then reused when it seems necessary. Who knows, maybe I've just been missing something in the last ~15 years of watching football.

[IceCap]

More food for thought. Peyton Manning has a 1-2 Super Bowl record. And people consider him a possible GOAT. Would people be saying the same about Tom Brady if he were 1-2? I seriously doubt it. Tom Brady had to win three times as many Super Bowls as Manning would eventually win just to be considered Manning's potential equal.

That's the sort of thing I'm getting at when I say Manning is the "establishment." Everyone was ready to crown Manning a great quarterback almost from the moment he decided that was what he was going to be, regardless of how his post-season career shook out. Tom Brady had to win the Super Bowl three times just to get in on the discussion.

I really don't have the energy to delve full-on into this discussion, but I do have to speak up about the "intensity" buzzword that seems to be making its rounds here. This is the first place I've ever seen where there is any thinking that Peyton Manning "lacks" intensity, in any context. Of all the possible items I could think of that would tip the scales in Brady's favor in this debate, "intensity" would be a push. Both of them have gotten to where they are in their careers with the help of their fierce competitiveness. "Intensity" strikes me as nothing more than a hollow intangible that can be used, disposed, and then reused when it seems necessary. Who knows, maybe I've just been missing something in the last ~15 years of watching football.

That was where the whole Vanderjagt thing came from. He accused Manning of lacking intensity in a playoff lose against the Chad Pennington-led Jets.

There's also the Manning Face meme, which seems to centre around Peyton looking sad rather then angry when things aren't going his way.

[HedleyLamarr]

What's the record for both quarterbacks when the game situation calls for a "win and you get to advance to next week"? So playoffs plus needing to win in Week 17 to make the playoffs.

Whoever's is better....that's the QB I'd take. And I think Brady leads that department.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

EDIT: For good measure:

[BBTV]

More food for thought. Peyton Manning has a 1-2 Super Bowl record. And people consider him a possible GOAT. Would people be saying the same about Tom Brady if he were 1-2? I seriously doubt it. Tom Brady had to win three times as many Super Bowls as Manning would eventually win just to be considered Manning's potential equal.

That's the sort of thing I'm getting at when I say Manning is the "establishment." Everyone was ready to crown Manning a great quarterback almost from the moment he decided that was what he was going to be, regardless of how his post-season career shook out. Tom Brady had to win the Super Bowl three times just to get in on the discussion.

You're assuming an awful lot, and stating a hypothetical as fact. At the same time, talking down a little bit to those who prefer Brady to Manning. You need to give credit to people to judge with their own eyes, regardless of records. Is Roethlisburger in these discussions? He's won more than Manning - but people just "know" that Manning is better. Hell, Dan Marino was in an awful lot of discussions despite not having any rings, because people knew from watching him that he was real good.

Peyton is 1-2 in SBs, but his overall (*sigh*) body of work puts him in that elite class. You wonder if Brady was 1-2 if he'd be there? Well, depends on how he lost the 2, and what else happened in his career. If the McNabb sees a wide open Westbrook in the 4th quarter and the Eagles win that game, does that really change people's view of Brady's overall (*sigh*) body of work that much? Truth is we'll never know. My opinion is no.

[Kramerica Industries]

I really don't have the energy to delve full-on into this discussion, but I do have to speak up about the "intensity" buzzword that seems to be making its rounds here. This is the first place I've ever seen where there is any thinking that Peyton Manning "lacks" intensity, in any context. Of all the possible items I could think of that would tip the scales in Brady's favor in this debate, "intensity" would be a push. Both of them have gotten to where they are in their careers with the help of their fierce competitiveness. "Intensity" strikes me as nothing more than a hollow intangible that can be used, disposed, and then reused when it seems necessary. Who knows, maybe I've just been missing something in the last ~15 years of watching football.

That was where the whole Vanderjagt thing came from. He accused Manning of lacking intensity in a playoff lose against the Chad Pennington-led Jets.

There's also the Manning Face meme, which seems to centre around Peyton looking sad rather then angry when things aren't going his way.

Fair enough on the first part. "Idiot kicker" is something I remember well but I had admittedly forgotten the context surrounding it. Odds are that was just a contrarian man's opinion (I mean, Mike Vanderjagt did have quite an :censored: persona) but it does exist, fair enough.

As for the second part, I don't really see why that has to be any kind of black or white discussion. First of all, pictures are nothing more than snapshots in time that may or may not be reflective of the entire story, but that's beside the point. Individuals process circumstances differently than others. I can't really be convinced that Tom Brady repeatedly screaming is something that shows he's better capable of handling adversity than Peyton Manning and his "aw shucks" demeanor tends to indicate. At the end of the day, both QB's have pioneered entirely improbable comebacks on more than one occasion in their careers, sometimes in games where their teams were going head-to-head, no less. I'd say that, whatever they're doing, they're obviously doing it right.

(Also, while I'm sure "Manning Face" exists for Peyton, I guess I'm just more used to it being done with Eli instead. Must be a Manning thing.)

[IceCap]

More food for thought. Peyton Manning has a 1-2 Super Bowl record. And people consider him a possible GOAT. Would people be saying the same about Tom Brady if he were 1-2? I seriously doubt it. Tom Brady had to win three times as many Super Bowls as Manning would eventually win just to be considered Manning's potential equal.

That's the sort of thing I'm getting at when I say Manning is the "establishment." Everyone was ready to crown Manning a great quarterback almost from the moment he decided that was what he was going to be, regardless of how his post-season career shook out. Tom Brady had to win the Super Bowl three times just to get in on the discussion.

You're assuming an awful lot, and stating a hypothetical as fact. At the same time, talking down a little bit to those who prefer Brady to Manning.

Not really, no.

As for what I'm assuming? Just what I've taken from observing the way football fans and the media have treated the two over the course of their respective careers. "Guesstimating" would be an apt term.

You need to give credit to people to judge with their own eyes, regardless of records. Is Roethlisburger in these discussions? He's won more than Manning - but people just "know" that Manning is better. Hell, Dan Marino was in an awful lot of discussions despite not having any rings, because people knew from watching him that he was real good.

Peyton is 1-2 in SBs, but his overall (*sigh*) body of work puts him in that elite class. You wonder if Brady was 1-2 if he'd be there? Well, depends on how he lost the 2, and what else happened in his career. If the McNabb sees a wide open Westbrook in the 4th quarter and the Eagles win that game, does that really change people's view of Brady's overall (*sigh*) body of work that much? Truth is we'll never know. My opinion is no.

First off...when did the phrase "body of work" make it onto your personal list? Not that I have any love for the phrase. Just an question.

Anyway the eye test thing. As I said, I based my assumptions on what I've observed from football fans and the media as a whole. As of now? Tom Brady's got three Super Bowl titles to his name. Two of which were won on the backs of game winning drives he orchestrated. And you still have people who downplay that to Manning's one championship for reasons that have to do with how he apparently had better talent or a better system around him. Maybe people wouldn't actually view Brady's career as being "lesser" if he had a 1-2 Super Bowl record, but it sounds like a very real possibility given how people try to downplay the three he does have.

And yeah, I'm keeping rings in the discussion. Marino does come up in the GOAT debates, but he usually makes an early exit because he never won the big one. Championships aren't the be-all-end-all of this sort of thing, but you cannot dismiss them entirely either.

As for the second part, I don't really see why that has to be any kind of black or white discussion. First of all, pictures are nothing more than snapshots in time that may or may not be reflective of the entire story, but that's beside the point. Individuals process circumstances differently than others. I can't really be convinced that Tom Brady repeatedly screaming is something that shows he's better capable of handling adversity than Peyton Manning and his "aw shucks" demeanor tends to indicate. At the end of the day, both QB's have pioneered entirely improbable comebacks on more than one occasion in their careers, sometimes in games where their teams were going head-to-head, no less. I'd say that, whatever they're doing, they're obviously doing it right.

In my defence I never tried to claim that Manning was the "lesser" of the two because of a meme. I was just pointing out that it does exist and that the idea that Manning lacks a certain intensity isn't something new. It's been around for a while now.

If there's anything to it I'd say DG nailed it. Bumps in the road tend to phase Manning more then they do Brady.

[OnWis97]

First, I have no dog in this fight. I honestly can take or leave each of them.

It seems that Manning has "the eye test", the regular season stats, and the burden of starting his career on some pretty bad teams. It seems that Brady has the postseason success and a bit more resiliency.

So:

Brady = Kobe

Manning = LeBron

?

LeBron (Manning) has even more God-given talent than Kobe (Brady) and like LeBron, Manning is more likely to tighten up when it counts.

Honestly, I'd take Manning any day to get me a division title, but then maybe I'd want Brady in the playoffs.

I guess I'll go with Manning (see Buc's stat on team records when each was injured). I fully admit that I think rings are overrated. Manning, to me, is a guy that was going to be successful anywhere. Brady MAY be a system guy. We don't know what he'd have done had he been drafted by some other team. Situation is important; particularly in football. Of course Brady gets credit for taking the Patriots from good to great by replacing a solid QB.

My favorite ring example (albeit a different sport): Olajuwan has two rings. Stockton Malone have zero. Is that because Hakeem was better? Or is it because Houston peaked during Jordan's first retirement while Utah peaked while the Bulls were unstoppable?

Anyway, I am going with Manning but I admit that there is some pause because Brady seems more able to find ways to win in the clutch.

[Unocal]

Here's an interesting debate- Peyton Manning.... or Brett Favre?

Both are a lot more similar than you think.

[Rockstar Matt]

Sorry to interrupt this Brady vs. Manning debate, (I'm a Manning guy who's also always liked and respected Tom Brady as a player)

However, I wanted to put out my postseason predictions.

I had Green Bay vs. Seattle in the NFC title game and Denver vs. New England in the AFC title game at the beginning of the season, with Seattle beating New England in the Super Bowl. Now that those four are the top four seeds, it's only normal that I'll stick with those picks. Except I'm anything but normal and I've been (re)infected with a severe case of homeritis. Unbeknownst to me, there is a cure for it. If I'm being honest (which I probably am) I don't necessarily care for the cure until the inevitable defeat that is surely coming to the (my) Cowboys.

Onto the picks:

Wild-Card Weekend (is that still a thing we say)

Panthers with a little, Cardinals with a little bit less.

Steelers with a decent amount, the Ravens with an unsatisfactory amount.

Colts with plenty, Bengals with a few.

Cowboys with a plethora, Lions with a large Starbucks coffee.

Divisional Round (even though there aren't any divisional games... I know, I was just as confused)

Patriots with forty-burger sadness, Colts with a fat newborn (human).

Seahawks with five-squared give or take a Lynch TD, Panthers with the 12th man minus two-Supermans.

Cowboys with their season average, Packers with less than that.

Broncos with 3 Manning TD's plus another with a Terrell Davis wannabe, Steelers with Peyton's number minus a Superman.

Conference Championships.

Cowboys with JJ Wilcox's number, Seahawks with Marshawn's number.

Patriots with a near forty-burger sadness, Broncos with a true sadness and numerous shots of the "Manning Face"

Super Bowl XLIX (49 for you Roman illiterates)

*Cowboys beat the Patriots, by a little.

I reserve the right to go back to my pre-season prediction of a Seahawks-Patriots Super Bowl culminating with a second consecutive Seahawks title once the Cowboys drop the ball and lose this weekend.

[DnBronc]

Patriots with a near forty-burger sadness, Broncos with a true sadness and numerous shots of the "Manning Face"

Even if the Pats win, I don't see a 40-burger. And, Denver can win there, but the weather needs to help some (especially since it is the late game), and Fox and Del Rio can't screw it up. Denver needs to bring their A-game, not the C-game that they have brought there the last three years.

[TheOldRoman]

All else being equal, here's the thing that separates Manning and Brady in my mind:

Brady gets injured, misses entire season...Patriots still finish 10-6. Manning gets injured, misses entire season...Colts barely scrape together two wins.

Good point. On the other hand, Peyton had two HOF receivers in Indy, along with a great TE, while Brady was largely throwing to "guys off the streets". So when Brady finally got the talent on offense in 2007 with Welker and Moss, he destroyed the record books.

The thing with Manning is, in the playoffs his teams seem to lose because of him, not in spite of him. He was done a faceplant in EVERY playoff season except the one in which he got to face Lovie Smith's defense. And sure, he did lead a great comeback against the Pats in the AFC title game that year, but it chaps my ass as a Bears fan that the *one* time Peyton didn't fall on his face it was because the Bears defense got destroyed by two mediocre RB and he had to do very little. I think Peyton is a much better QB than Favre, but both had the tendency to F up at the worst moment.

[vicfurth]

The most interesting reference here is comparing Brady and Manning to Kobe and LeBron. My only question is who the Michael Jordan quarterback would be. Because Jordan wipes the floor with the other two.

In actual football news, Suh got his suspension revoked. Maybe the NFL considered facing the Dallas line a bigger punishment than missing a game.

[IceCap]

The most interesting reference here is comparing Brady and Manning to Kobe and LeBron. My only question is who the Michael Jordan quarterback would be. Because Jordan wipes the floor with the other two.

Joe Montana.

[PSUcelticsWON95]

EDIT: For good measure:

http://dailysnark.com/32-nfl-logos-combined-peyton-mannings-face/

Not too much of the "Manning Face," but it's Peyton Manning's face in every NFL logo. The intro paragraph makes me laugh every time.

[infrared41]

To me, the Manning vs. Brady debate comes down to this. Which one do I have more confidence in when it's a "clutch" situation - especially if the weather in that situation is less than ideal? I'll take Brady every single time. Can Manning fans honestly say that they have complete confidence in their guy in every situation? I can't.

[PSUcelticsWON95]

To me, the Manning vs. Brady debate comes down to this. Which one do I have more confidence in when it's a "clutch" situation - especially if the weather in that situation is less than ideal? I'll take Brady every single time. Can Manning fans honestly say that they have complete confidence in their guy in every situation? I can't.

That's exactly it for me. With a game-winning drive, or poor weather, Brady plays better than Manning from what I've seen.

[tBBP]

^ And that's what I was getting at by saying Brady's been more consistent.

I still don't really consider one better than the other, but Manning's uber-competitiveness and knack for obsessively trying to control every little thing at the line of scrimmage has had more of a tendency to backfire on him, especially in recent seasons.

[JayMac]

To me, the Manning vs. Brady debate comes down to this. Which one do I have more confidence in when it's a "clutch" situation - especially if the weather in that situation is less than ideal? I'll take Brady every single time. Can Manning fans honestly say that they have complete confidence in their guy in every situation? I can't.

That's exactly it for me. With a game-winning drive, or poor weather, Brady plays better than Manning from what I've seen.

You guys must not have watched Brady in the last 2 AFC championship games. He has been downright terrible, especially against Baltimore 2 years ago. Granted, Manning didn't look good in the Super Bowl but he was better than Brady in last year's AFC championship.