mr.nascar13

Death of the Alliance of American Football

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17 minutes ago, Red Comet said:

 

I vote for having overtime be decided by a giant robot fight.

Drunken fan fight in the stands would be more fun.

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1 hour ago, kmccarthy27 said:

It has less to do with that. VKM has an issue with getting in his own way of things. I think if he just lets Oliver Luck handle everything, they can survive. Its when Week 3 and Week 4 ratings come out and they are lower than what Vince wants them to be, he will get involved heavily and the XFL 2.0 will end up the same way 1.0 did.  

 

I can even see Luck leaving after the first season, just because VKM just got overly hands on with the production as the season went on. 

Luck is an :censored:. So full of himself. He jumps from job to job. He has the shelf life of stale bread.

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12 minutes ago, tp49 said:

Drunken fan fight in the stands would be more fun.

 

Or how about drunken fans in giant robots?

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43 minutes ago, pmoehrin said:

 

I think there is a fanbase to be found that likes football but doesn't care for either NFL, NCAA or High School.

 

But the only way to reach that group is to be radically different from any of the three organizations described, and with both the AAF and the XFL, all I see is NFL-lite.

 

If it were me, I would try to have a league look as much like a video game as possible. No game is going for more than two hours. I'm eliminating kicking. I'm probably going to eight on eight, possibly flag. I wouldn't just allow, but encourage players to be on social media during the game. Allow guys to cut wrestling style promos if they want. Encourage over the top celebrations. I would probably shoot the thing in a studio rather than going across the whole country.

 

Above all else, a new league like that needs marketable stars to attract viewers. I would focus on that first, then figure out how it plays into building fan loyalty for specific teams.

 

A lot of that sounds like arena football, and that it wouldn't be far off from the model I would want. You have to be doing something right to survive for three decades, and I think the key to their success is they don't try to emulate the NFL.

 

To me, that's the only avenue of success a potential league like that can have. A traditional football league with the same presentation and feel of the NFL and the same rules in place is simply not going to work.

 

18 minutes ago, Red Comet said:

 

I vote for having overtime be decided by a giant robot fight.


So basically..... this.
 

 

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5 hours ago, dfwabel said:

ell, as AdAge explained this morning, the lack of commercials was basically a fatal flaw in the AAF's media strategy.  Networks weren't really making money either.

Quote

CBS will also miss out on hosting the early AAF playoff game on Sunday, April 21, and what would have been the league's first-ever title showdown on Saturday, April 27. The erasure of these future broadcasts won't have much of a financial impact on CBS; AAF ad inventory is limited to around 14 national split-screen spots per game, or well shy of the 85 full-screen units that air over the course of a typical NFL broadcast.

 

I thought that the split-screen presentation was a strategy designed to keep people watching during the commercial breaks. I noticed that this strategy was copied at least once by The Tonight Show on NBC.

 

 

2 hours ago, bosrs1 said:

The writing is on the wall... spring 2nd rate football is not something any reasonable percentage of people want.

 

It bears repeating that there are only so many jobs in the NFL and CFL.  For every player in those leagues, there are plenty of others who could do the same job equally well.  Perhaps these players were overlooked by scouts because they went to too small a school; perhaps they fell just short in one of the arbitrary measures of speed, strength, or height; perhaps they made mistakes in life.  The point is that there exist a huge number of NFL-quality players who are not in the NFL.

Furthermore, players who are just below the standard of the NFL and CFL are still elite athletes.  If you have NFL-calibre and near-NFL-calibre players being guided by quality coaches, you're going to get competitive and entertaining play, such as that which characterised the AAF. 

 

A new league could make it if it actually had the one thing that the AAF claimed it had, namely, owners who are willing to fund the thing for multiple years without seeing returns.  A new league would need owners rich enough and committed enough to withstand losses for a good five years or so, during which time the league would establish its identity, create emotional bonds, and win fans based on the narratives that play out during its seasons.  To expect these things to happen instantly, or in the space of just one season, is unrealistic.  A new league needs owners who function more like patrons of a cultural institution than proprietors of a traditional business.  That is the ethic that prevails in English football, where they say "Q: How do you make a small fortune in football? A: You start with a large fortune."

 

1 hour ago, pmoehrin said:

I think there is a fanbase to be found that likes football but doesn't care for either NFL, NCAA or High School.

 

But the only way to reach that group is to be radically different from any of the three organizations described, and with both the AAF and the XFL, all I see is NFL-lite.

 

If it were me, I would try to have a league look as much like a video game as possible. No game is going for more than two hours. I'm eliminating kicking. I'm probably going to eight on eight, possibly flag. I wouldn't just allow, but encourage players to be on social media during the game. Allow guys to cut wrestling style promos if they want. Encourage over the top celebrations. I would probably shoot the thing in a studio rather than going across the whole country.

 

Above all else, a new league like that needs marketable stars to attract viewers. I would focus on that first, then figure out how it plays into building fan loyalty for specific teams.

 

A lot of that sounds like arena football, and that it wouldn't be far off from the model I would want. You have to be doing something right to survive for three decades, and I think the key to their success is they don't try to emulate the NFL.

 

To me, that's the only avenue of success a potential league like that can have. A traditional football league with the same presentation and feel of the NFL and the same rules in place is simply not going to work.


Unfortunately, the various indoor/arena leagues are bare-bones operations that can stay in business only by paying their players peanuts.  And, while there is an entity running around by the name of the Arena Football League, it is only tangentially related to the league of the same name that once spanned the country, had games on NBC, and had NFL owners and players amongst its teams' ownerships.  That league folded in 2009 as a means of crushing the players' union.

Anyway, while I like arena football (you'll notice the logos of two AFL teams in my sig), I also see the flaws in the game. I have come to realise that it is possible to have too much scoring.  When a touchdown becomes the expected result of every possession, and when you talk of "defensive stops" as you would do in basketball, then you know that something is seriously off-kilter. 

Arena football was interesting when it was iron man football; seeing the wide receiver who just beat the defensive back have to turn around and guard him, seeing the linebacker who just tackled the running back now have to carry the ball and be tackled by that same player, this was fun.  Without that element, the game can become boring, even if it is a 56-49 game.  I'll take a 14-10 game in which red zone plays have some tension to them and scoring is not a foregone conclusion, a game that can feature goal-line stands.

The worst aspect of the excess of scoring in the arena/indoor game comes in the name of clock management. Frequently a team will try not to score too early before the end of the first half or of the game, so as not to give the opponent time to ring up a score of its own. There is absolutely nothing in sports so farcical as the offensive team trying not to score while the defensive team refuses to tackle; this is the only thing worse than the interminable free-throw quagmire found in the final minutes of a closely-contested NBA game.

For me the reform necessary to make arena football interesting is the elimination of first downs. Just have a single reset line at midfield; a team has four downs to get to that line, and then four more downs to get to the endzone. This way there would be a serious doubt about whether a team could score on any given possession. And I would consider limiting the defence to seven players to the offence's eight. With only two defensive linemen versus three on the offensive line, the almost extinct running game could start to play a role. And of course bring back iron man play — though I could understand not having it for linemen, for the sake of sparing their heads too many hits.  (When the Arena League had linemen playing both ways, it spawned an amusing little aphorism: How do you tell an offensive lineman from a defensive lineman? Line them up and slap each one on his helmet; the ones who don't flinch are offensive linemen.)

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It is a shame the AAF has "suspended  operations." if they think they can come  back after this fiasco, they are mistaken. I wanted the league to succeed. I wasn't a fan, but several of you were and I can appreciate that passion. Having said that, I don't think the XFL gets off the ground or lasts more than one season, despite the fact they are "well funded."

 

I don't think minor football leagues work. 1. I don't think the interest is there. The USFL had a few NFL players and college stars. The WFL played in new places: Orlando, Birmingham, Memphis – uncharted territory at the time. They were just underfunded and terribly managed. 2. A startup football league is tremendously expensive. 3. Minor league baseball and hockey have been around forever. 4. The NBA was very smart in their creation and management of their women's league and minor league. 4. When the WLAF and NFL E started, the NFL considered it as the greatest thing since sliced bread. They sold it as a major league product. The league offices were on Madison Avenue. The league was rushed to market and poorly managed. The ownership model was horrible and they did not have committed owners. Jim Speros (Baltimore CFL Colts) wanted a team for DC; the Maloof Brothers wanted to move Birmingham to Houston. The Montreal franchise went to a guy who worked for Molsons and he got a 10-year balloon loan from the NFL. There are so many funding/management/logistical mistakes to overcome.

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2 hours ago, pmoehrin said:

 

I think there is a fanbase to be found that likes football but doesn't care for either NFL, NCAA or High School.

 

 

Um... What?

 

Sure, folks that like football but hate every incarnation of it.  Must be dozens of people like that out there.

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Bill Polian was on Golic & Wingo this morning.  His interview begins at the 24:00 mark.

http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play?id=26429743

 

Andrew Brandt did a "clips show w/ commentary" podcast with his February interviews with both Ebersol and Dundon.

https://tunein.com/podcasts/Sports--Recreation-Podcasts/The-Business-of-Sports-With-Andrew-Brandt-p868257/?topicId=130166578

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I think that people citing high school or college football as an example for how people routinely watch sub-NFL quality football are missing the big reason for why those particular levels of football are successful: Teams on those levels have a deep connection to their community. People will watch high school and college football because they represent their town/neighborhood and college and that the players are also local (relatively speaking in the case of college). Some start-up league is never going to accomplish that same feeling and that puts said leagues into a big uphill battle for attention. 

Edited by Red Comet

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1 hour ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

Unfortunately, the various indoor/arena leagues are bare-bones operations that can stay in business only by paying their players peanuts.  And, while there is an entity running around by the name of the Arena Football League, it is only tangentially related to the league of the same name that once spanned the country, had games on NBC, and had NFL owners and players amongst its teams' ownerships.  That league folded in 2009 as a means of crushing the players' union.

1

 

My point is more the mentality a new league needs to have to be successful, rather than getting into any actual specifics.

 

I wouldn't want a league that looks like Arena Football either. I want something that isn't out there, and that can mean any number of things.

 

As far as the bare bones operations comment, that's the main reason why I would want to mirror my league so much around it. I think with both the AAF and the XFL, a big reason why they failed so soon is that their start-up costs were so high. Both leagues were running full 50-man rosters in pro level stadiums across major cities.

 

Regardless of what you pay your players, the production costs associated with that are going to be high, and there's no need to do any of them.

 

Just rent out a warehouse or two (maybe a small stadium), throw a couple of thousand seats in, and film every game there. You can add in TV production values as you want and it would have the side effect of giving it a different look from the NFL.

 

It may not be as glamorous or look as good as what the NFL does, but you wouldn't have to worry about travel costs, you don't need as many operations people, and you would have complete control over how the product looks on TV.

 

That makes more sense in my head then relying on each team to build up their loyal fanbase when they've existed all of five minutes.

 

Quote

It bears repeating that there are only so many jobs in the NFL and CFL.  For every player in those leagues, there are plenty of others who could do the same job equally well.   Perhaps these players were overlooked by scouts because they went to too small a school; perhaps they fell just short in one of the arbitrary measures of speed, strength, or height; perhaps they made mistakes in life.  The point is that there exist a huge number of NFL-quality players who are not in the NFL.

 

Are there? No major sports league has more player turnover than the NFL. Its nothing for a team to turn over 80% of the roster within three years. It's not why people tune in. There's only a small handful of players capable of moving the PR needle, and most of them are QB's.

 

My worry wouldn't be about finding quality players; my concern would be about finding players people are going to want to see. Nobody cared about Rod Smart until he put He Hate Me on the back of his jersey. That's the type of attention a new league is going to have to generate to grow at least initially.

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3 hours ago, tp49 said:

Drunken fan fight in the stands would be more fun.

In Salt Lake that may have been five people.

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I think it's time we just accept the fact that Springtime football will not work in the US. If there is a void in football, just watch the CFL.

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The players have to pay own their way home, lol are you kidding me, it's the Gerard Gallant taxi x300

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4 hours ago, pmoehrin said:

 

I think there is a fanbase to be found that likes football but doesn't care for either NFL, NCAA or High School.

 

But the only way to reach that group is to be radically different from any of the three organizations described, and with both the AAF and the XFL, all I see is NFL-lite.

 

If it were me, I would try to have a league look as much like a video game as possible. No game is going for more than two hours. I'm eliminating kicking. I'm probably going to eight on eight, possibly flag. I wouldn't just allow, but encourage players to be on social media during the game. Allow guys to cut wrestling style promos if they want. Encourage over the top celebrations. I would probably shoot the thing in a studio rather than going across the whole country.

 

Above all else, a new league like that needs marketable stars to attract viewers. I would focus on that first, then figure out how it plays into building fan loyalty for specific teams.

 

A lot of that sounds like arena football, and that it wouldn't be far off from the model I would want. You have to be doing something right to survive for three decades, and I think the key to their success is they don't try to emulate the NFL.

 

To me, that's the only avenue of success a potential league like that can have. A traditional football league with the same presentation and feel of the NFL and the same rules in place is simply not going to work.

So take Arena League and put it on a 100 yard field?

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12 minutes ago, MJWalker45 said:

So take Arena League and put it on a 100 yard field?

 

Could they maybe even play outdoors?

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5 minutes ago, Red Wolf said:

 

Could they maybe even play outdoors?

I'm surprised ESPN hasn't started college 7 v 7 leagues yet. I figure it's only a matter of time. 

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1 hour ago, pmoehrin said:

 

My point is more the mentality a new league needs to have to be successful, rather than getting into any actual specifics.

 

I wouldn't want a league that looks like Arena Football either. I want something that isn't out there, and that can mean any number of things.

 

As far as the bare bones operations comment, that's the main reason why I would want to mirror my league so much around it. I think with both the AAF and the XFL, a big reason why they failed so soon is that their start-up costs were so high. Both leagues were running full 50-man rosters in pro level stadiums across major cities.

 

Regardless of what you pay your players, the production costs associated with that are going to be high, and there's no need to do any of them.

 

Just rent out a warehouse or two (maybe a small stadium), throw a couple of thousand seats in, and film every game there. You can add in TV production values as you want and it would have the side effect of giving it a different look from the NFL.

 

It may not be as glamorous or look as good as what the NFL does, but you wouldn't have to worry about travel costs, you don't need as many operations people, and you would have complete control over how the product looks on TV.

 

That makes more sense in my head then relying on each team to build up their loyal fanbase when they've existed all of five minutes.

 

 

Are there? No major sports league has more player turnover than the NFL. Its nothing for a team to turn over 80% of the roster within three years. It's not why people tune in. There's only a small handful of players capable of moving the PR needle, and most of them are QB's.

 

My worry wouldn't be about finding quality players; my concern would be about finding players people are going to want to see. Nobody cared about Rod Smart until he put He Hate Me on the back of his jersey. That's the type of attention a new league is going to have to generate to grow at least initially.

 

I'd say we should have a spin-off thread to throw around ideas.

 

51 minutes ago, sohiosportsfreak said:

I think it's time we just accept the fact that Springtime football will not work in the US. If there is a void in football, just watch the CFL.

 

Nah. I'd say the NHL and NBA will each have another lockout before we accept defeat. Speaking of lockouts, the 2004-05 NHL lockout should've helped the Arena League.

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I cannot wait for the XFL to kick off next year and DC United fans blaming Vince McMahon for ruining Audi Field

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Got an email from Lids about buying AAF caps "while they last." Which got me thinking: will be there any value at all in AAF gear? I remember in another thread, some guy talked about buying tons of opening day Marlins gear, then sold most of it years later for thousands of dollars a piece. Has there been any value in XFL gear?

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1 hour ago, Quillz said:

Got an email from Lids about buying AAF caps "while they last." Which got me thinking: will be there any value at all in AAF gear? I remember in another thread, some guy talked about buying tons of opening day Marlins gear, then sold most of it years later for thousands of dollars a piece. Has there been any value in XFL gear?

When did Lids have any AAF stuff?  I remember looking on both their old website and their new fanatics based one and never saw any AAF gear at all.

 

Though on a side note yesterday the AAF website still had their gear at ridiculous prices.  Guess they're going to try and use that to pay some of the creditors...

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