2014 MLB Changes (logo, uniform wise, etc)

[FiddySicks]

BBTV, do you get pissed off at people who are drinking beer and talking during a game? I mean, they're probably really not there for the baseball...

The flaw in your reasoning is that you think a few minutes of a multi-hour game should not be wasted to honor a member of the military. This is baseball we are talking about...where there is no clock. Who the cares? Honestly. A May 5th matinee will be forgotten by most by June. A service member will always remember standing on a field, being applauded by thousands.

There's no way you've stewed after a game and thought, "Damn, if we could have just ignored that guy in the military, we would have won, and the experience would have been a billion times better".

In the end, it's not about you. Get over it.

I've stated that I don't mind an honor to someone who's deserving. As long as it's not taking away from the reason why I'm there, then fine. But it shouldn't be mandatory. It's not a government function. Nor should anyone be made to feel bad because they didn't honor someone while other teams did. You stated that baseball was secondary. Well, it's not secondary if that's the whole basis for the event that I'm attending. Then it's first, and anything that disrupts that is unwarranted. Does showing someone on camera and them getting ovation disrupt anything? Of course not. But this whole mentality that if you don't salute the troops then you're against them has really gone too far.

I'm not sitting here stewing, because at the end of the day, I couldn't care less if you disagree with me, and hell - I may learn something from the discussion if my points are countered and the counterargument makes sense. That's kind of the whole point of discussing something. However I disagree in every way possible with the statement that baseball is secondary at a baseball game. I don't go to baseball games to have a flag shoved down my throat, or see people running around in camo, or to chant USA and get all fired up to go in to the parking lot and punch anyone who doesn't look like a natural citizen. This stuff is nothing more than pandering, and just like I shouldn't be "forced" to wear a flag on my lapel, teams shouldn't feel "forced" or "guilted" in to staging ceremonies for soldiers every single game.

You're right - it's not about me. I fail to see how any of this has been about me. If we've reached the part of the discussion where that's all that's left, then I suggest we move on.

To tell you the truth, before this season, I would've probably disagreed with you on this. But after going to nearly a season's worth of D Backs games, I have to admit that them stopping every game to "honor" some random member of the military made me roll my eyes a bit. Sure, they did a tremendous thing for our country, but it kind of cheapens it a bit when it's done every game. And is it really much of an "honor" when you're being given recognition during a random tuesday afternoon game in August in a half empty stadium? And that's not even getting into their post "honorary" mark of, "Oh, BTW, buy this cheap piece of souvenir from our gift shop and we'll donate a penny to some random organization with the word HONOR or SOLDIER in it!" It almost felt a bit jingoistic while still being capitalist/exploitative after awhile.

[IceCap]

I don't go to baseball games to have a flag shoved down my throat, or see people running around in camo, or to chant USA and get all fired up to go in to the parking lot and punch anyone who doesn't look like a natural citizen. This stuff is nothing more than pandering, and just like I shouldn't be "forced" to wear a flag on my lapel, teams shouldn't feel "forced" or "guilted" in to staging ceremonies for soldiers every single game.

I think I see the main point of disagreement here. To paraphrase George Orwell there are two types of nationalism. The kind that comes from positive emotions and the kind that comes from negative emotions. The former generally doesn't hurt anyone, while the latter can lead to very destructive behaviour. WSU151 views honouring a soldier at a ball game positively. It's celebratory, it's born of pride in one's country and those that serve it, and it ultimately does not hamper the game.

While I don't think you, Vet, are viewing this as a case of negative nationalism I do think you're either having trouble with, or simply refusing to, separate the two forms of nationalism. There's no way that the nationalism that spawns "hey, let's honour a soldier" is the same kind that spawns "let's punch foreigners because 'MURICA!" You can't, and shouldn't, lump those two behaviours in under the banner of "nationalism," because "nationalism" can mean a wide variety of things. Not all of which are negative, or fuelled by xenophobia.

[WSU151]

BBTV, do you get pissed off at people who are drinking beer and talking during a game? I mean, they're probably really not there for the baseball...

The flaw in your reasoning is that you think a few minutes of a multi-hour game should not be wasted to honor a member of the military. This is baseball we are talking about...where there is no clock. Who the cares? Honestly. A May 5th matinee will be forgotten by most by June. A service member will always remember standing on a field, being applauded by thousands.

There's no way you've stewed after a game and thought, "Damn, if we could have just ignored that guy in the military, we would have won, and the experience would have been a billion times better".

In the end, it's not about you. Get over it.

I've stated that I don't mind an honor to someone who's deserving. As long as it's not taking away from the reason why I'm there, then fine. But it shouldn't be mandatory. It's not a government function. Nor should anyone be made to feel bad because they didn't honor someone while other teams did. You stated that baseball was secondary. Well, it's not secondary if that's the whole basis for the event that I'm attending. Then it's first, and anything that disrupts that is unwarranted. Does showing someone on camera and them getting ovation disrupt anything? Of course not. But this whole mentality that if you don't salute the troops then you're against them has really gone too far.

I'm not sitting here stewing, because at the end of the day, I couldn't care less if you disagree with me, and hell - I may learn something from the discussion if my points are countered and the counterargument makes sense. That's kind of the whole point of discussing something. However I disagree in every way possible with the statement that baseball is secondary at a baseball game. I don't go to baseball games to have a flag shoved down my throat, or see people running around in camo, or to chant USA and get all fired up to go in to the parking lot and punch anyone who doesn't look like a natural citizen. This stuff is nothing more than pandering, and just like I shouldn't be "forced" to wear a flag on my lapel, teams shouldn't feel "forced" or "guilted" in to staging ceremonies for soldiers every single game.

You're right - it's not about me. I fail to see how any of this has been about me. If we've reached the part of the discussion where that's all that's left, then I suggest we move on.

To tell you the truth, before this season, I would've probably disagreed with you on this. But after going to nearly a season's worth of D Backs games, I have to admit that them stopping every game to "honor" some random member of the military made me roll my eyes a bit. Sure, they did a tremendous thing for our country, but it kind of cheapens it a bit when it's done every game. And is it really much of an "honor" when you're being given recognition during a random tuesday afternoon game in August in a half empty stadium? And that's not even getting into their post "honorary" mark of, "Oh, BTW, buy this cheap piece of souvenir from our gift shop and we'll donate a penny to some random organization with the word HONOR or SOLDIER in it!" It almost felt a bit jingoistic while still being capitalist/exploitative after awhile.

It might cheapen the honor for you, but I doubt it cheapens the honor for the service member. You see it dozens of times. He/she experiences that particular event one time.

If it was you on the field being honored for serving, would you really be annoyed that you were out there for a random Tuesday afternoon game and 23,000 people gave you a 20-to-30 second ovation?

[wonderbread]

can we just stop this whole debate. It's a nice thing to do for those that are being honored. It doesn't harm anyone in anyway.

[illwauk]

BBTV, do you get pissed off at people who are drinking beer and talking during a game? I mean, they're probably really not there for the baseball...

The flaw in your reasoning is that you think a few minutes of a multi-hour game should not be wasted to honor a member of the military. This is baseball we are talking about...where there is no clock. Who the cares? Honestly. A May 5th matinee will be forgotten by most by June. A service member will always remember standing on a field, being applauded by thousands.

There's no way you've stewed after a game and thought, "Damn, if we could have just ignored that guy in the military, we would have won, and the experience would have been a billion times better".

In the end, it's not about you. Get over it.

because at the end of the day, I couldn't care less if you disagree with me,

Let's move on, then. We'll agree to disagree.

Though "I fail to see how any of this has been about me" can be answered with these comments: "As long as it's not taking away from the reason why I'm there"; "Well, it's not secondary if that's the whole basis for the event that I'm attending"; " I don't go to baseball games to have a flag shoved down my throat".

And maybe teams aren't "guilted" into staging ceremonies?? Maybe they enjoy doing it?

You might as well embrace the fact that you are indeed cynical. No reason to argue that.

He might be using himself as an example, but BBTV is far from the only person who has those views, and one hardly has to be cynical to say it's beyond f'd up that you can't even so much as ask whether or not pro sporting events are an appropriate place to honor troops and veterans without having your loyalty to your country questioned.

If even the asking of such questions offends you so much, I'd suggest emigrating to Saudi Arabia and becoming a Saudi national.

can we just stop this whole debate. It's a nice thing to do for those that are being honored. It doesn't harm anyone in anyway.

My friends dad (who was like a dad to me growing up) who was a Navy Seal in Vietnam would probably disagree that conflating the rah rah machismo of pro sports with complex issues involving military and foreign policy "doesn't harm anyone."

[WSU151]

BBTV, do you get pissed off at people who are drinking beer and talking during a game? I mean, they're probably really not there for the baseball...

The flaw in your reasoning is that you think a few minutes of a multi-hour game should not be wasted to honor a member of the military. This is baseball we are talking about...where there is no clock. Who the cares? Honestly. A May 5th matinee will be forgotten by most by June. A service member will always remember standing on a field, being applauded by thousands.

There's no way you've stewed after a game and thought, "Damn, if we could have just ignored that guy in the military, we would have won, and the experience would have been a billion times better".

In the end, it's not about you. Get over it.

because at the end of the day, I couldn't care less if you disagree with me,

Let's move on, then. We'll agree to disagree.

Though "I fail to see how any of this has been about me" can be answered with these comments: "As long as it's not taking away from the reason why I'm there"; "Well, it's not secondary if that's the whole basis for the event that I'm attending"; " I don't go to baseball games to have a flag shoved down my throat".

And maybe teams aren't "guilted" into staging ceremonies?? Maybe they enjoy doing it?

You might as well embrace the fact that you are indeed cynical. No reason to argue that.

He might be using himself as an example, but BBTV is far from the only person who has those views, and one hardly has to be cynical to say it's beyond f'd up that you can't even so much as ask whether or not pro sporting events are an appropriate place to honor troops and veterans without having your loyalty to your country questioned.

If even the asking of such questions offends you so much, I'd suggest emigrating to Saudi Arabia and becoming a Saudi national.

can we just stop this whole debate. It's a nice thing to do for those that are being honored. It doesn't harm anyone in anyway.

My friends dad (who was like a dad to me growing up) who was a Navy Seal in Vietnam would probably disagree that conflating the rah rah machismo of pro sports with complex issues involving military and foreign policy "doesn't harm anyone."

Who is questioning your loyalty?

And both of you need to look up the definition of "cynical". I think you have it confused with something else. Questioning others' intentions is what you do...which oddly enough...is the definition of the word.

[BBTV]

It's BBTV. Cynicism is kind of his forte. No point in even going back and forth with him.

Just because you're not intelligent enough to rationally debate an issue doesn't mean that everyone isn't. I've made a point and explained why I feel that way. An intelligent person will point out why my reasoning is flawed, or submit to my stance.

An unintelligent person will resort to dismissing my argument as cynicism. Frankly, I'm not sure why you felt it was your place to enter a discussion that didn't involve you.

Seriously? That's all you do. The whole FAQ thread scenario where you and Mockba claimed I couldn't handle disagreement didn't even involve you. I answered a question from someone else and then you had to inject yourself into it because of your holier-than-thou, always got to be right attitude. You have to impose your personal beliefs on others and if they disagree, then they're wrong and unintelligent.

Well, here you are putting yourself into something that had nothing to do with you and you're getting all bothered again. You prove us right at every turn.

Be careful - you wouldn't want to get yourself suspended from an internet message board again.

[Silent Wind of Doom]

In all of this... I only have one question.

BBTV... why do you have Super Macho Man as your avatar when you're from Philly? Shouldn't your avatar be Mr. Sandman?

[Jungle Jim]

Where should the line be drawn as to how long a ceremony can or should be? How long would a ceremony have to be to make you say it was too long to interrupt a baseball game?

[illwauk]

Who is questioning your loyalty?

And both of you need to look up the definition of "cynical". I think you have it confused with something else. Questioning others' intentions is what you do...which oddly enough...is the definition of the word.

Well, this asshat, for one.

And FYI, cynicism is questioning the intentions of others for the sake of doing just that. It's quite another thing to question the intentions of big business organizations who are making a lot of money off of all this "honoring" and not even donating one tenth of one percent of what they make to causes that help troops and/or veterans.

[RETROJR79]

I think the perfect time to honor veterans at baseball games is Sunday after God Bless America.

I forgot that the Cubs is getting new road uniforms

[WSU151]

Who is questioning your loyalty?

And both of you need to look up the definition of "cynical". I think you have it confused with something else. Questioning others' intentions is what you do...which oddly enough...is the definition of the word.

Well, this asshat, for one.

A rebuttal to an ESPN article is questioning your loyalty and patriotism? Do you really take internet articles this seriously? This particular writer's view that is a dissention of your own view makes him an "asshat"? Good to know.

When you go to a game...nobody forces you to be patriotic. You're not forced to wave a flag. You don't have to chant "USA USA USA" if you don't want to. You can sit and not do anything if you want. Go to the pisser during the ceremony if you so decide. Nobody will say anything, I promise.

Sounds like this is pretty much faux outrage because you're not part of the majority.

[PhlyBoy]

If you don't honor a veteran every day then you clearly support al Qaida and hate America, you ungrateful :censored:s. The Phillies should have the starting pitcher blow a soldier on the mound before every game, lest they be branded traitors.

We're getting off-topic here, but I'd much rather have teams not honor a veteran than interrupting the flow of the game to do so.

Taking 10 minutes out of a game to honor a veteran is fine with me. The game is secondary in the grand scheme of things.

No, it's not. If you're going to a baseball game, then the game is the first thing. If hoy were going to a military banquet, then baseball would be secondary. It's garbage that everyone has to one up each other with the patriotism. I haven't problem with supporting the troops or honoring those that are deserving, but I fail to see how a commercial event is the venue to do it. Or at least I fail to see why it's de facto mandatory to do so.

You must be one grumpy ass of a man if you can't even take a few minutes to make someones day, veteran or no veteran. Think about it from their prospective, let it be a veteran or a kid or a wedding proposal or something. If they are honored at a Major League sporting event, that is a moment they will never forget. You should be proud of humanity that we are honoring people for a few minutes each game. Sports is my biggest interest in life by far, I relate everything to them and talk about them nonstop. Everything in my home is sports decorated basically. But in the grand scheme of things sports is just that, sport. But if you can make someones day for 1 minute, that's more important in the long run.

Figures you're from Philly

[Brian]

As Chris points out, the new road BP jerseys for the Reds are black:

Talk about the Cincinnati Reds taking two steps back. When they went to the new uniforms in 2007 it was nice seeing them phase out the black, minus the black drop shadows. Now it appears black is becoming a dominant color, once again. Needless to say I'm not looking forward to the next major uniform overhaul if this is the trend.

[illwauk]

Who is questioning your loyalty?

And both of you need to look up the definition of "cynical". I think you have it confused with something else. Questioning others' intentions is what you do...which oddly enough...is the definition of the word.

Well, this asshat, for one.

A rebuttal to an ESPN article is questioning your loyalty and patriotism? Do you really take internet articles this seriously? This particular writer's view that is a dissention of your own view makes him an "asshat"? Good to know.

When you go to a game...nobody forces you to be patriotic. You're not forced to wave a flag. You don't have to chant "USA USA USA" if you don't want to. You can sit and not do anything if you want. Go to the pisser during the ceremony if you so decide. Nobody will say anything, I promise.

Sounds like this is pretty much faux outrage because you're not part of the majority.

You asked who was questioning my loyalty in an attempt to call my bluff, I answered, and now it's not legit because it's on the very same medium we're using to communicate in the first place?

The point is, people like that writer exist, and many others agree with him. Frankly, I think it's a bit sad that you're so dogmatic about this that you can't see anyone who disagrees with you as having anything but "faux outrage." I was one of the few people here who actually came out in support of Christopher Dorner (to an extent)... do you REALLY think I care about whether or not I'm part of the majority? Is it really THAT hard for you to admit that those of us who aren't cosigning to all the "MILITARY, YEAH!" being pushed at modern sporting events might actually have a point... even if you don't necessarily agree with it?

[BBTV]

In all of this... I only have one question.

BBTV... why do you have Super Macho Man as your avatar when you're from Philly? Shouldn't your avatar be Mr. Sandman?

It was, but Riley Cooper made me change it when he was drafted.

[WSU151]

Who is questioning your loyalty?

And both of you need to look up the definition of "cynical". I think you have it confused with something else. Questioning others' intentions is what you do...which oddly enough...is the definition of the word.

Well, this asshat, for one.

A rebuttal to an ESPN article is questioning your loyalty and patriotism? Do you really take internet articles this seriously? This particular writer's view that is a dissention of your own view makes him an "asshat"? Good to know.

When you go to a game...nobody forces you to be patriotic. You're not forced to wave a flag. You don't have to chant "USA USA USA" if you don't want to. You can sit and not do anything if you want. Go to the pisser during the ceremony if you so decide. Nobody will say anything, I promise.

Sounds like this is pretty much faux outrage because you're not part of the majority.

You asked who was questioning my loyalty in an attempt to call my bluff, I answered, and now it's not legit because it's on the very same medium we're using to communicate in the first place?

The point is, people like that writer exist, and many others agree with him. Frankly, I think it's a bit sad that you're so dogmatic about this that you can't see anyone who disagrees with you as having anything but "faux outrage." I was one of the few people here who actually came out in support of Christopher Dorner (to an extent)... do you REALLY think I care about whether or not I'm part of the majority? Is it really THAT hard for you to admit that those of us who aren't cosigning to all the "MILITARY, YEAH!" being pushed at modern sporting events might actually have a point... even if you don't necessarily agree with it?

1) I was trying to figure out if it was one of us who was questioning your loyalty or patriotism, or someone of importance. But it's not. It's some anonymous author and I guess it makes you feel better to call him an asshat. Good on you, illwauk.

2) You and your side have a perfectly fine argument. I disagree with it. You have issues honoring the military and police and sporting events. I don't. We shouldn't stop honoring them just because you and your minority don't like it.

Honoring someone at a :censored:ing baseball game for a couple of minutes, someone who has volunteered to work for not-much money in the face of danger does absolutely no harm to anyone...except maybe it hurts your feelings. Wah. Let me get some tissues for you. And then after that, we can cheer on a bunch of millionaire drunks who beat their wives and then party it up, because sports.

[IceCap]

Is it really THAT hard for you to admit that those of us who aren't cosigning to all the "MILITARY, YEAH!" being pushed at modern sporting events might actually have a point... even if you don't necessarily agree with it?

It is possible. I think camo uniforms are insulting, a cheap marketing ploy to appeal to emotion to make a quick dollar. Every single camo uniform or patriotic hat looks cheap, contrived, forced, insulting, and ridiculous to me.

That being said I don't have a single problem with honouring a solider at some point during the night's proceedings. So on that issue...yeah you, Vet, and anyone else in your camp have a legitimate point about that being forced as well. I just disagree with it.

So to your question. Can you do the same?

[Gothamite]

Taking 10 minutes out of a game to honor a veteran is fine with me. The game is secondary in the grand scheme of things. Complaining that it interrupts the flow of a game is pretty naive.

Naive?

[BBTV]

Again - it's not that there's any problem with honoring anyone at a sporting event. It's that it's gotten to the point where you have to.

It's great that they volunteer and all that, and fight for our freedom, and USA! - but I just don't understand how that correlates with a baseball game, and how that's the appropriate venue for it.

I'm not going to boo a soldier that gets announced at a game, I just stand respectfully lest I be branded a traitor. I'm also not going to go jerk him off because he's wearing camo.

With the exception of the times where things in sports transcend the game and become legitimate social issues (the Michael Vick case for example, the Washington controversy for another example), or extreme locally-hitting-home stories (fire fighters that saved lives at a major high-rise fire in the city, and things like that) sports should just be about sports, and the government, or schools, or anywhere else where I'm not going there specifically for another reason, can honor anyone they want.

I get that there's 30,000 - 90,000 people at a sporting event, and that gets the honoree more applause than they'd receive if they were being honored at the local Target, but the Philadelphia Eagles and the local Target aren't really that dissimilar, considering they're both private businesses selling products to the public. In the Eagles case, they got some government funding for their stadium (though the majority was private, and their total renovation is all private), so there's a case there that if the government wants to use that place as a venue for something than the team should comply, but that's not why they do it. They do it to pander to the community, and to the USA! USA! crowd. In my opinion, at least.