The Big Ol' Counterfeit Jersey Thread

[ElwoodCuse]

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wow. my God ,this grammar not good, you see:

Ancient proverb once say...Those who flood board with spam get lifetime of ban.

He who go to bed with itchy tooshy wake up with smelly finger.

Man with hole in pocket feel cocky all day

[Discogod]

Sacramento Kings Reggie Theus

Was wondering if anyone knew the story on this jersey? Is it real/fake? Did Adidas have a program known as the swingman soul line? Want to buy but being cautious.

Swingman Soul jerseys were identical to regular swingmans (swingmen?), but of retired players. I have a few, typical Adidas "quality". The Theus looks like a fake though - I'm not sure if Adidas released his jersey. Shame, 'cause I've been trying to get a couple of mid-80s Kings jerseys for a while.

[crashcarson15]

I've noticed recently that private sports stores owned by individuals (i.e. not corporations like Champs, Finish Line, Sports Authority, etc.) are frequently selling Chinese knockoffs. There are a ton out here in the Midwest. Anyone else see this, too?

I've heard it but haven't personally seen it.

Even a big place out here like Denver Autographs has the knockoffs for sale with autographs on them. It's more the throwbacks than anything current, but it's really a problem that's getting bigger.

I don't understand why players would knowingly sign a knockoff considering they know what an authentic is because they wear them for their jobs. I would think overall that would bring the value of the signature down. I'd rather have them sign a well-made replica than a crappy knockoff authentic. I guess ultimately it just comes down to price. Most people don't care about true authentic jerseys as long as they can get a good deal on something else. I have to wonder though, if the market gets saturated with enough Chinese knockoff jerseys, will the price of the real authentics come down in order to compete.

The store I saw out here had a bunch of Bears, Packers, Vikings, Browns, Steelers, and Dolphins knockoff jerseys all on a rack. All on "sale" for $59.99. This was the quality of them...which isn't bad, but you can tell it's a knockoff:

NOTE - This is not a photo I took at the store. It is a photo I saw online that looks exactly like what I saw at the store...tags and all!

The letters, numbers and logos on the jersey are a dead give away. The longer those jerseys are worn and the more they are washed the worse the quality gets. Also the stitching on the numbers and letters is not the correct (dare I say iconic) zig-zag pattern that we are used to seeing.

Also, the athletes might not be signing those jerseys, the autographs could be fakes too.

See, but I'm aware of it. It's a matter of are other customers aware? I mean, there's not much I can do anyway. Should I stand outside of the store with my own authentic, replica, and "swingman" jerseys to show would-be customers what the differences are from the Chinese fakes? I bet I'd get kicked out real fast. All kidding aside though, I'm debating writing to teams when I see stores selling fakes. I could tell the Chicago Bears of this store since it's in their area.

Write to the mall's developer if it's at a shopping center. Odds are they don't really want fake products being sold at their properties.

[Roger Clemente]

The NOB font is hilarious.

Seriously. A comparison for those who don't know:

It's not even close.

I'm fairly certain they got the NOB font from the NHL Shop customization preview window, which is not quite that accurate as I think that may be that the shop is just simply using a single layer with automatic outlines that overlap the layer. See for yourself! For whatever reason, they must have just assumed that the white letters and numbers are also triple-layered.

[no97]

So how about this scenario - I know that I've posted about the guy here who got prison time for selling counterfeit jerseys. I just found out that they are now selling a group of those at a local resale shop (no idea of the price, but I think I'll stop to check it out on Monday). Interesting development that I'll have to check out...

[RedSox44]

Sacramento Kings Reggie Theus

Was wondering if anyone knew the story on this jersey? Is it real/fake? Did Adidas have a program known as the swingman soul line? Want to buy but being cautious.

Swingman Soul jerseys were identical to regular swingmans (swingmen?), but of retired players. I have a few, typical Adidas "quality". The Theus looks like a fake though - I'm not sure if Adidas released his jersey. Shame, 'cause I've been trying to get a couple of mid-80s Kings jerseys for a while.

The NBA hasn't commissioned any Swingman Soul jerseys for the Kings. See here: http://store.nba.com/category/index.jsp?categoryId=3378832

Just the Celtics, Bulls, Suns, Lakers, Nets, Warriors, Jazz, Rockets, Timberwolves, Knicks, Sixers, Blazers, Nuggets, Mavericks, Pistons and Spurs.

~~~~

The NOB font is hilarious.

Seriously. A comparison for those who don't know:

It's not even close.

I'm fairly certain they got the NOB font from the NHL Shop customization preview window, which is not quite that accurate as I think that may be that the shop is just simply using a single layer with automatic outlines that overlap the layer. See for yourself! For whatever reason, they must have just assumed that the white letters and numbers are also triple-layered.

It's clear the counterfeiters didn't do hardly any research.

[63Bulldogs63]

Thanks for the clarification. Its a damn shame, I too have been looking for late 85-93 kings throwbacks. Mainly Wayman Tisdale, Richmond, Theus, and Hurley.

[RedSox44]

Thanks for the clarification. Its a damn shame, I too have been looking for late 85-93 kings throwbacks. Mainly Wayman Tisdale, Richmond, Theus, and Hurley.

Good luck with your search. Here's hoping the NBA commissions more Swingman Soul jerseys in the near future.

[charger77]

So how about this scenario - I know that I've posted about the guy here who got prison time for selling counterfeit jerseys. I just found out that they are now selling a group of those at a local resale shop (no idea of the price, but I think I'll stop to check it out on Monday). Interesting development that I'll have to check out...

Somebody got time? I thought we were told there is no legal issue here?

[loogodude90]

So how about this scenario - I know that I've posted about the guy here who got prison time for selling counterfeit jerseys. I just found out that they are now selling a group of those at a local resale shop (no idea of the price, but I think I'll stop to check it out on Monday). Interesting development that I'll have to check out...

Somebody got time? I thought we were told there is no legal issue here?

I don't think there's isn't a legal issue. I think the point is that a lot of people just don't think it's a "crime" that should necessarily be given so much attention. People break the law everyday, hell, you break the law everyday, though you don't like to admit it.

[Discogod]

Thanks for the clarification. Its a damn shame, I too have been looking for late 85-93 kings throwbacks. Mainly Wayman Tisdale, Richmond, Theus, and Hurley.

Same here. I have 93-94 home & road Richmond jerseys, but I want the powder blues...

@Redsox44 - there were also Heat & Bucks soul swingmen. The 81-82 Bucks jerseys are damn near impossible to find - I've seen maybe 3 or 4 on ebay in the last 5 years.

[RedSox44]

Thanks for the clarification. Its a damn shame, I too have been looking for late 85-93 kings throwbacks. Mainly Wayman Tisdale, Richmond, Theus, and Hurley.

Same here. I have 93-94 home & road Richmond jerseys, but I want the powder blues...

@Redsox44 - there were also Heat & Bucks soul swingmen. The 81-82 Bucks jerseys are damn near impossible to find - I've seen maybe 3 or 4 on ebay in the last 5 years.

There were? I didn't see any outside of the teams I mentioned earlier in the thread, at store.nba.com, so I assumed that they didn't make any more.

[Brass]

So how about this scenario - I know that I've posted about the guy here who got prison time for selling counterfeit jerseys. I just found out that they are now selling a group of those at a local resale shop (no idea of the price, but I think I'll stop to check it out on Monday). Interesting development that I'll have to check out...

Somebody got time? I thought we were told there is no legal issue here?

I don't think there's isn't a legal issue. I think the point is that a lot of people just don't think it's a "crime" that should necessarily be given so much attention. People break the law everyday, hell, you break the law everyday, though you don't like to admit it.

So speeding and intentionally violating intellectual property laws are equally as bad? I'm sure you probably think jay walking and murder are on the same page too, eh?

There's a reason we have "misdemeanors" and "felonies"....

[gueman]

So how about this scenario - I know that I've posted about the guy here who got prison time for selling counterfeit jerseys. I just found out that they are now selling a group of those at a local resale shop (no idea of the price, but I think I'll stop to check it out on Monday). Interesting development that I'll have to check out...

Somebody got time? I thought we were told there is no legal issue here?

I don't think there's isn't a legal issue. I think the point is that a lot of people just don't think it's a "crime" that should necessarily be given so much attention. People break the law everyday, hell, you break the law everyday, though you don't like to admit it.

So speeding and intentionally violating intellectual property laws are equally as bad? I'm sure you probably think jay walking and murder are on the same page too, eh?

There's a reason we have "misdemeanors" and "felonies"....

That is quite a leap saying that violating IP laws and murder are the same. To me it is more like prostitution, more of a moral issue. So far not one of you defending the IP view on this has shown any examples of a designer getting paid less because they are making counterfeit jerseys in China. And so far no one here has posted how the loss of revenue because of the sale of counterfeit jerseys as affected the income of the big 4 leagues. And so far no one has posted how the only reason a "authentic" NFL jersey is worth $300 is because of the existence of counterfeit jerseys. Actually there are no "authentic" jerseys for sale in any store on line or at the mall, because unless it is game worn and taken from the locker room it is just a replica. So we are arguing over levels of quality in a replica jersey, and whether there should be a monopoly on $300 jerseys. Look if a company in china can make money selling a jersey for $20, just imagine how much money is being made by selling the same jersey for $300. And I bet most of you all were pro Occupy folks as well, yet have no issue with the leagues ripping of the masses in the name of "authenticity". Oh and how many of you call the cops on your friends or neighbors smoking or selling weed?

[charger77]

So how about this scenario - I know that I've posted about the guy here who got prison time for selling counterfeit jerseys. I just found out that they are now selling a group of those at a local resale shop (no idea of the price, but I think I'll stop to check it out on Monday). Interesting development that I'll have to check out...

Somebody got time? I thought we were told there is no legal issue here?

I don't think there's isn't a legal issue. I think the point is that a lot of people just don't think it's a "crime" that should necessarily be given so much attention. People break the law everyday, hell, you break the law everyday, though you don't like to admit it.

So speeding and intentionally violating intellectual property laws are equally as bad? I'm sure you probably think jay walking and murder are on the same page too, eh?

There's a reason we have "misdemeanors" and "felonies"....

That is quite a leap saying that violating IP laws and murder are the same. To me it is more like prostitution, more of a moral issue. So far not one of you defending the IP view on this has shown any examples of a designer getting paid less because they are making counterfeit jerseys in China. And so far no one here has posted how the loss of revenue because of the sale of counterfeit jerseys as affected the income of the big 4 leagues. And so far no one has posted how the only reason a "authentic" NFL jersey is worth $300 is because of the existence of counterfeit jerseys. Actually there are no "authentic" jerseys for sale in any store on line or at the mall, because unless it is game worn and taken from the locker room it is just a replica. So we are arguing over levels of quality in a replica jersey, and whether there should be a monopoly on $300 jerseys. Look if a company in china can make money selling a jersey for $20, just imagine how much money is being made by selling the same jersey for $300. And I bet most of you all were pro Occupy folks as well, yet have no issue with the leagues ripping of the masses in the name of "authenticity". Oh and how many of you call the cops on your friends or neighbors smoking or selling weed?

So all of the above justifies IP theft?

The bolded definitely does not apply to me.

[Fox]

Basically, it's impossible to even make an argument with some of the stubborn people in this thread. A typical exchange goes as:

Person 1: If I can get a jersey for cheap, I don't care that it's illegal and I'm going to buy it.

Person 2: You're saying that there is no legal issue with buying counterfit jerseys, you are entitled to a jersey at a lower price, and doing things illegal isn't bad. It is also ok to kill people. That is exactly what you're saying.

[ADW77]

Basically, it's impossible to even make an argument with some of the stubborn people in this thread. A typical exchange goes as:

Person 1: If I can get a jersey for cheap, I don't care that it's illegal and I'm going to buy it.

Person 2: You're saying that there is no legal issue with buying counterfit jerseys, you are entitled to a jersey at a lower price, and doing things illegal isn't bad. It is also ok to kill people. That is exactly what you're saying.

Wow, that's so far off you have no idea.

BTW, one of the members on your 'side' is the one that started comparing one illegal activity to another with his, "well, you speed so you're just as guilty because you commit crime too."

[pcgd]

So far not one of you defending the IP view on this has shown any examples of a designer getting paid less because they are making counterfeit jerseys in China.

Designer working for Reebok/adidas/nike/ccm/russel/etc. designs jersey/logo

Reebok/adidas/nike/ccm/russel/etc. doesn't make jersey sale.

Sale not reflected in overall profits

Designer gets less profit sharing or less bonus

I know not every person that buys a counterfeit did it over the real deal, but there is a number of people that were going to buy the real deal but decided to get the cheaper one. Or they got a sewn counterfeit instead of a screened replica because of the perceived value.

OECD did a study in 1998 about the economic impact of counterfeiting. I know its not the most up to date but I couldn't find anything else with numbers on sportswear. Plus if anything we can all agree counterfeiting has only gotten worse.

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/11/11/2090589.pdf

Counterfeit sporting goods counted for 10% of all goods seized in 1994 (page 14)

"Industry world-wide loses billions of dollars every year to counterfeiters." (page 23, this is not just sportswear this is including perfume, airplane parts, software, movies, everything)

"beside direct losses of sales and goodwill, one should not forget the expenditure involved in protecting and enforcing intellectual property rights. The right owner becomes involved in costly investigations and litigation when combating counterfeiters and may also have to spend further sums on product protection." (page 23)

"Ultimately, it is the consumer who pays the cost of unfair competition. Although many consumers believe they are getting a bargain when they buy counterfeits, the actual value of the product is normally much lower. Hence, they end up paying an excessive price for an inferior product." (page 24)

"Counterfeiting is a severe problem and the common perception is that it is increasing. However,it is virtually impossible to find accurate statistics to substantiate these perceptions, not least because of the clandestine nature of the activity. The overall costs of counterfeiting in the world today are normally estimated to be 5-7 per cent of world trade. There is no substantial aggregated data to support the high percentages, but the figures are now accepted and used to illustrate the extent of the counterfeiting problem." (page 24)

"Estimates in the United States and Europe imply that more than 200,000 jobs are lost due to counterfeiting in these two regions alone." (page 25)

Even the OECD admits is nearly impossible to gauge how much money counterfeiting costs industry exactly. Mainly because you can't treat every sale as a "loss" for the manufacture/league. You also can't track the number made or sold because...well its illegal so nobody keeps books on it. All of these are estimates so you'll never hear how much its cost the leagues. But it has cost them in some way unless you truly believe that 100% of people that buy a counterfeit would have never bought the real deal instead.

I think we all can agree by going to your average US sporting event that 5-7% of all jerseys being counterfeit is a VERY conservative estimate. I'd say its somewhere around 20%-30%. And when it comes to "sewn" I'd bet its closer to 50%.

[ADW77]

So far not one of you defending the IP view on this has shown any examples of a designer getting paid less because they are making counterfeit jerseys in China.

Designer working for Reebok/adidas/nike/ccm/russel/etc. designs jersey/logo

Reebok/adidas/nike/ccm/russel/etc. doesn't make jersey sale.

Sale not reflected in overall profits

Designer gets less profit sharing or less bonus

I know not every person that buys a counterfeit did it over the real deal, but there is a number of people that were going to buy the real deal but decided to get the cheaper one. Or they got a sewn counterfeit instead of a screened replica because of the perceived value.

OECD did a study in 1998 about the economic impact of counterfeiting. I know its not the most up to date but I couldn't find anything else with numbers on sportswear. Plus if anything we can all agree counterfeiting has only gotten worse.

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/11/11/2090589.pdf

Counterfeit sporting goods counted for 10% of all goods seized in 1994 (page 14)

"Industry world-wide loses billions of dollars every year to counterfeiters." (page 23, this is not just sportswear this is including perfume, airplane parts, software, movies, everything)

"beside direct losses of sales and goodwill, one should not forget the expenditure involved in protecting and enforcing intellectual property rights. The right owner becomes involved in costly investigations and litigation when combating counterfeiters and may also have to spend further sums on product protection." (page 23)

"Ultimately, it is the consumer who pays the cost of unfair competition. Although many consumers believe they are getting a bargain when they buy counterfeits, the actual value of the product is normally much lower. Hence, they end up paying an excessive price for an inferior product." (page 24)

"Counterfeiting is a severe problem and the common perception is that it is increasing. However,it is virtually impossible to find accurate statistics to substantiate these perceptions, not least because of the clandestine nature of the activity. The overall costs of counterfeiting in the world today are normally estimated to be 5-7 per cent of world trade. There is no substantial aggregated data to support the high percentages, but the figures are now accepted and used to illustrate the extent of the counterfeiting problem." (page 24)

"Estimates in the United States and Europe imply that more than 200,000 jobs are lost due to counterfeiting in these two regions alone." (page 25)

Even the OECD admits is nearly impossible to gauge how much money counterfeiting costs industry exactly. Mainly because you can't treat every sale as a "loss" for the manufacture/league. You also can't track the number made or sold because...well its illegal so nobody keeps books on it. All of these are estimates so you'll never hear how much its cost the leagues. But it has cost them in some way unless you truly believe that 100% of people that buy a counterfeit would have never bought the real deal instead.

I think we all can agree by going to your average US sporting event that 5-7% of all jerseys being counterfeit is a VERY conservative estimate. I'd say its somewhere around 20%-30%. And when it comes to "sewn" I'd bet its closer to 50%.

I would like to point out that when I went to the Broncos/Bengals game this season for every true authentic jersey I saw, I saw at least five counterfeits. This isn't including replicas into the matter. When I went to the rally they had to start off the season for the Broncos, the percentage was much higher.

I would say that now, that about 75% of all sewn jerseys worn at events are counterfeit.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

I wonder what the NFL is losing by continuing to push the terrible screened jerseys at $80. For the average user, if you go to NFL.com, your options are $80 for crap, or $300 for "authentic." You go to eBay, and you see tons of sewn, nicer jerseys (certainly compared to the screened) for $50-$75. If you're not aware of the illegalities, you'd be dumb to go for the screened version.

Yes, there is such a thing as too good to be true, but I think (as I've said before in this thread) the NFL is in part creating this second-hand marker by the way its official items are priced.

Note: I'm not making a moral or legal argument; only an economic one.