Las Vegas NHL Expansion

[IceCap]

9 minutes ago, daniel75 said:

All this because of a "butt hurt" comment? Stop talking down to people, your supposed to be a moderator.

Yep. See, "butt hurt" isn't exactly the language that we want to promote here. So no, me telling a user to not use that term is not me "antagonizing" anyone. That's me doing the moderator thing.

 

Now me disagreeing with a poster you agree with? That's not me talking down to people. That's me having an opinion. Sorry if it ruffles your feathers.

 

20 minutes ago, worcat said:

Don't flex your moderator powers...

Again, when have I done that? Have I given you a warning point? Or edited away the points you're trying to make? I could have edited out your use of the term "butt hurt" but didn't.

I did tell you not to use the term in the future, but that wasn't a mod thing. It was a life lesson thing. Don't use the term "butt hurt." No one will take you seriously if you do.

 

20 minutes ago, worcat said:

..to those that have no faith in the NHL and those that still cling to the hope of a team moving to Quebec

Why should we have faith in the NHL? They've proven stubborn in Arizona to the point of ridiculousness. They're also batting 60/40 on "non-traditional" markets. That's not a failing grade, but it's not getting anyone into the good schools either.

As for Quebec...the league will go to Quebec sooner or later, if only because it has an arena and owners willing to give the league money. So that'll happen one way or another. It's just frustrating to see the league pass it over for a risky desert venture, when the last risky desert venture ended up as the laughing stock that is Arizona.

 

20 minutes ago, worcat said:

I understand Quebec and many in Canada have a strong love of the sport and want the Nordiques back, but there is a reason they were not chosen for the expansion bid.

Yes, there is a reason. You seem to assume the best of intentions, I assume the worst. The NHL didn't even want to go back to Winnipeg when TNSE bought the Thrashers. TNSE's financial benefactor (a real life Lord 'n stuff) had to basically economically blackmail the league to let him move the team he paid for to the city he wanted to operate them out of. And hey, that worked out because the team actually turned a profit.

As for Canada's love for the sport, yeah we do. And it sucks when we're passed over for fanbases that don't have the history supporting the NHL like we do, or have the numbers we do.

 

20 minutes ago, worcat said:

I'm simply discussing sports on a sports message board about hockey.

You called people you disagreed with "butt hurt." I disagreed with you, and you accused me of wanting move all of California's teams to Canada. So maybe try to avoid hyperbole next time.

 

8 minutes ago, the admiral said:

It's funny how no one argues for Quebec (, province of) as a worthy place to grow the game. It's really hurting there, but could come back strong. I'd say it's worth the investment.

"Grow the game" is just code for "more Sunbelt please!"

Fact is that the Thrashers going to Winnipeg grew the league more than 20 years of throwing money down a hole in Arizona ever did.

[Old School Fool]

12 minutes ago, the admiral said:

It's funny how no one argues for Quebec (, province of) as a worthy place to grow the game. It's really hurting there, but could come back strong. I'd say it's worth the investment.

 

People in Quebec must've been losing their minds that their team moved and then won a championship immediately. They got screwed.

[worcat]

I'm sorry but the term you wish I refuse to use in the future, isn't offensive. If it were, it'd be a blocked and censored choice of words that would be prevented from being used. There are much more offensive things being posted on this forum than that. 

 

Everyone has opinions but I should not feel attacked for my opinions trying to discuss the state of the NHL and trying to debate the pros and cons of the NHL in Vegas. This is the joy of being able to discuss sports in the free world. To be able to express and defend your opinion. Not to be singled out and attacked for it. Clearly you are a Canadian, you feel slighted by the NHL. Not by me. I didn't personally call you out. You may have been offended by my comment, that's fine. It was a vague reference against people that keep crying for Quebec or Seattle etc. But at the end of the day, neither city made a proposal that was warranted worthy of being an expansion franchise. 

 

It hurts, it sucks. I know you want Your NHL back and for everything to be perfect. I want the Whalers back too but I'm not throwing a fit or attacking people that are fans in Phoenix or Florida demanding their teams return to traditional hockey markets. 

 

You may not have faith in Bettman or the NHL, that's fine. But for the love of hockey, I do. I've expressed in the past, I'm not a fan of the Vegas bid, it is what it is. Hell I'm a Blues fan, that's enough torture for me year in and year out. I shouldn't feel persecuted for my opinions on a damn online forum talking about hockey, especially a team that has yet to be named.

[The_Admiral]

In all seriousness, the fact that hockey is dying in Quebec gives me great concern. Everyone makes fun of the Canadiens for insisting upon francophone coaches and general managers, but that policy wasn't a problem when the coaches were Scotty Bowman or Jacques Demers or Pat Burns, and the general managers were Sam Pollock or Serge Savard. There's just a great lack of French-Canadian talent at every level of the game. The Blackhawks just picked up a good -- not great, but apparently good -- prospect without burning a draft pick because nobody even bothers to scout the Q anymore. Quebec has lots of immigrants and working-class people who can't keep up with the ever-escalating costs of hockey. To grow the game in an increasingly cosmopolitan area that has also served as a cradle of hockey, what can the league do at every level, from having a second team to increase provincial interest all the way down to subsidizing youth participation?

[worcat]

11 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

"Grow the game" is just code for "more Sunbelt please!"

Fact is that the Thrashers going to Winnipeg grew the league more than 20 years of throwing money down a hole in Arizona ever did.

 

also, didn't Auston Matthews (Born in Scottsdale, AZ) just get drafted #1 by Toronto? Yeah, everyone is correct. the NHL DID NOTHING to help grow the game in the sun belt. You must be furious that a Canadian team took an american from Arizona with the number one pick. Let's hope he doesn't help them win a stanley cup and return their storied franchise back to greatness. I'm wrong, my bad.

[IceCap]

16 minutes ago, worcat said:

also, didn't Auston Matthews (Born in Scottsdale, AZ) just get drafted #1 by Toronto? Yeah, everyone is correct. the NHL DID NOTHING to help grow the game in the sun belt. You must be furious that a Canadian team took an american from Arizona with the number one pick. Let's hope he doesn't help them win a stanley cup and return their storied franchise back to greatness. I'm wrong, my bad.

You're doing that thing where you assume points I've never made.

Fact is I'd be all for a Leafs roster made up entirely of guys from Slovenia who spoke no English if they won the Cup. Again, you need to lay off the hyperbole. It's the second leading cause of you looking ridiculous after the use of the term "butt hurt."

 

20 minutes ago, worcat said:

Everyone has opinions but I should not feel attacked for my opinions trying to discuss the state of the NHL and trying to debate the pros and cons of the NHL in Vegas. This is the joy of being able to discuss sports in the free world. To be able to express and defend your opinion. Not to be singled out and attacked for it.

Me disagreeing with you isn't attacking you. It's just a disagreement.

Further, this is a public forum. Anyone in the world can join and post free of charge. As such putting your opinion out there means accepting that someone just might disagree with it, and tell you why they disagree with it. That's called a discussion. 

It seems to me that you want the ability to post your opinion, but not to have to deal with people disagreeing with it.

 

20 minutes ago, worcat said:

Clearly you are a Canadian, you feel slighted by the NHL. Not by me. I didn't personally call you out...It was a vague reference against people that keep crying for Quebec or Seattle etc. But at the end of the day, neither city made a proposal that was warranted worthy of being an expansion franchise...It hurts, it sucks. I know you want Your NHL back and for everything to be perfect.

"Everything to be perfect"? Geeze, again with the hyperbole.

First off Seattle didn't even put a bid in. So there's that. Secondly, the NHL passed over Quebec for the same reason they let the Nords and original Jets move back in the 90s. They value short term potential gain and the ability to say they "grew the game" over long term stability in the bedrock of their fanbase.

You're arguing from the point of view that the NHL turned the Quebec City bid down, therefore it must not have been the best choice. Except that the NHL has proven that they'll make the wrong decision if given a chance. And almost did with Winnipeg/Atlanta until Lord Thomson told Gary to cut the crap.

That being said, under the hyperbole and wrong (imo) point of view, you do seem to get to the root of my angst. That the NHL has constantly taken Canada for granted as a market, and constantly pisses on the country time and time again.

Yeah, I'm upset about that.

 

20 minutes ago, worcat said:

You may not have faith in Bettman or the NHL, that's fine. But for the love of hockey, I do.

I have no faith in the NHL as it's currently led to do right by its most loyal fans, no. I'm also not a fan of rose-tinted glasses, so the position of "gotta like Gary Bettman because I love hockey" does nothing for me.

 

20 minutes ago, worcat said:

I shouldn't feel persecuted for my opinions on a damn online forum talking about hockey...

Ok worcat. I'm going to make this as clear as I can make it. Me disagreeing with you does not amount to me persecuting you (you have no idea what that term actually implies if you're using it here with a straight face) for your opinions. It's just me disagreeing with you. Stop playing the victim card because someone decided to go "hey I think that worcat guy is wrong about something."

 

[worcat]

I never asked you to like me or the opinions I have. I'm just here to talk hockey. If you disagree, that's fine. I'm just here to talk hockey.

[rams80]

3 hours ago, worcat said:

I understand, I get it. There is much doubt but Vegas continues to operate on a daily basis. Same can be said about California and water shortages, yet they continue to operate not only in the NHL but also MLB, NBA and NFL. People may dislike the Vegas expansion and I get that but to call it a failure already is ridiculous.

 

California at least has water compacts going for it.

[twi]

9 hours ago, Old School Fool said:

 

People in Quebec must've been losing their minds that their team moved and then won a championship immediately. They got screwed.

No way Roy gets traded to them if they're still in Quebec. 

[BrianLion]

10 hours ago, the admiral said:

It's funny how no one argues for Quebec (, province of) as a worthy place to grow the game. It's really hurting there, but could come back strong. I'd say it's worth the investment.

 

How exactly would you grow the game in Quebec?  It's already a hockey saturated province that produces a ton of NHL level talent and houses literally the most historic NHL franchise of all time.  Where's the growth potential for fanbase or player development there?  

[sparkychewbarky]

13 hours ago, Ice_Cap said:

Look sparky...

 

 

Look Ice_Cap...If you have a problem with me, you can address me directly...not in this manner.

 

worcat's right. Las Vegas brings a billionaire owner, a fantastic new arena, and a virtual sell-out for the first 3 years. Combine those facts with the reality that the NHL will be the only  pro team in a city of 2 million (for a while at least). Add in the fact that Las Vegas is the entertainment capital of the world. Let's see what they can do. Add in the element of 40 million visitors/year. How do all of these X-factors work? We don't know. This is a unique market. The NHL-in-Vegas could be a disaster...But it could also be a huge success story. I don't blame the NHL for taking a gamble (whoops! a gaming phrase) on it.

...Back to Quebec. Allow me to play MY Captain Canada card here. I would LOVE to see additional teams in Toronto, QC, and Halifax. (I know...Halifax is a pipe dream). In fact, I've done up extensive concepts for all 3 locations. I truly hope and believe that QC will have a relocation franchise sooner than later. 

As far as this team-name fiasco does...I'm not sure why it's proceeded in this way. It has been a bit of a cluster-f. However, if Adidas nails the identity, this part of the process will soon be forgotten.

Again...worcat's right...let's all give this some time. 

[agentrygraphics]

I remember when this thread was about the Las Vegas Expansion....

[~Bear]

Ok. When I put my two cents on this discussion, I thought perhaps people would debate for a page and then start bashing the branding again. I didn't think a hissy fit between members was going to occur. 

 

I'm no mod, so I can't make you do anything, but on behalf of everyone who is annoyed and wants to talk about Vegas sucky branding, please stop. This is becoming more personal than it is getting anywhere. Everyone is set on there opinion, and calling people by other members name is just calling for drama. No one can discuss anything when there's multiple people (two main people) battling out and dissecting everything the other has to say about Vegas's location because they don't understand the other has an opinion that they don't have.

 

Please, as a person, just stop now.

[CS85]

Las Vegas will officially be branded as the Petulant Forum Arguments, per sources.

[CreamSoda]

I am curios to see how much they downplay the adjective in the branding.

 

LAS VEGAS 

desert KNIGHTS

[BeerGuyJordan]

12 hours ago, the admiral said:

It's funny how no one argues for Quebec (, province of) as a worthy place to grow the game. It's really hurting there, but could come back strong. I'd say it's worth the investment.

 

12 hours ago, Ice_Cap said:

"Grow the game" is just code for "more Sunbelt please!"

Fact is that the Thrashers going to Winnipeg grew the league more than 20 years of throwing money down a hole in Arizona ever did.

 

"Growing the game" is a worthy enough goal, but it shouldn't be done at the expense of the stable traditional markets.

 

Quebec and Winnipeg aren't places where hockey's fanbase will grow. That doesn't mean I disagree with either city, but Atlanta's move North grew League revenues and stabalized the League. It was the right call, but it created few, if any new hockey fans.

 

The same is true of Quebec. They absolutely should have a team, but not to grow the game, rather to stabalize the League. 

 

Vegas has an uphill battle against the odds, anyone who denies that isn't seeing the facts. That being said, it's coming, and they've done about as much as you can expect to balance those odds, financially. Selling out your season tickets is impressive, and it set you up to succeed.

 

The NHL has made it rather clear that Quebec will be an absolute last resort, for expansion. I think their efforts would be best spent trying to buy Carolina, at a fraction of the cost.

[IceCap]

2 hours ago, sparky chewbarky said:

Look Ice_Cap...If you have a problem with me, you can address me directly...not in this manner.

That wasn't a reference to you I've been using the term "sparky" long before you

 

30 minutes ago, BeerGuyJordan said:

The NHL has made it rather clear that Quebec will be an absolute last resort, for expansion.

Well maybe the league wouldn't have to consider Quebec an option of last resort for expansion if they weren't terrified of the one country that has, from coast to coast, consistently proven its devotion to this league via butts in seats, eyeballs on televisions, and merch bought. 

Also if the league didn't go through with a boneheaded realignment scheme based on the assumption that Seattle would jump at the chance to for a franchise. Not doing that might have made expanding into Quebec City less of an issue, alignment wise (lol Seattle).

 

30 minutes ago, BeerGuyJordan said:

I think their efforts would be best spent trying to buy Carolina, at a fraction of the cost.

Maybe, we'll see. Peter K has no money, so Quebec interests could scoop him. Still? Quebecor doesn't have the financial leverage TNSE had in the form of Lord Thomson. Who was able to use his leverage in the English Canadian financial sector to force Gary to cut the crap when it came to moving the Thrashers to Winnipeg. So yeah, Carolina to Quebec City makes sense, but I still have my doubts it will happen. Firstly because Gary really doesn't seem to like moving Sunbelt teams up north. Secondly because he considers smallish Canadian markets anathema to his vision for the league, despite the fact that they're better financial options (see the Jets' revenue compared to Winnipeg vs Atlanta). Thirdly because ewww, French people.

 

30 minutes ago, BeerGuyJordan said:

"Growing the game" is a worthy enough goal, but it shouldn't be done at the expense of the stable traditional markets.

Well that's what happened when the Jets 1.0 moved. Quebec I'll give a begrudging pass on because Quebec (both the city and province) had no means to contribute to a new arena and Colorado is a "traditional market" the league probably should have been in anyway. Still? The opportunity to return to the great market that is Quebec City is there, and the league passed on it for idiotic reasons. 

 

30 minutes ago, BeerGuyJordan said:

Quebec and Winnipeg aren't places where hockey's fanbase will grow. That doesn't mean I disagree with either city, but Atlanta's move North grew League revenues and stabalized the League. It was the right call, but it created few, if any new hockey fans.

The Thrashers moving to Winnipeg probably didn't create new hockey fans, but opened up an untapped market of already existing hockey fans who were now able to buy NHL tickets (vital, considering  the NHL is still a gate-driven league), buy NHL merchandise, and engage with a local team.

It didn't grow the game in raw numbers of new hockey fans, but it grew the game in terms of willing NHL consumers. Maybe that's not enough for the foolishly Pollyanna-esque who hold the view that simply plopping a team in the desert will create a thriving fanbase (hint, the only other desert excursion in league history failed miserably), but there it is.

 

30 minutes ago, BeerGuyJordan said:

The same is true of Quebec. They absolutely should have a team, but not to grow the game, rather to stabalize the League. 

Same principal. With Quebec City you have a city of diehard hockey fans who currently don't have their own team. Sure, its citizenry root for other teams (probably Montreal, by and large), and even watch the games and buy merchandise. Putting a team in Quebec City suddenly takes that large, untapped market, and turns them into ticket buyers. Which can only grow the already present tv viewership and merchandise market.

In a gate-driven league like the NHL? Moving to a place where hockey fans already exist but which doesn't have a team is as vital when it comes to "growing" the game as trying to build an operation up from scratch in a market where there's no history of the game at all. In the former case? You're taking a large group of willing ticket buyers and turning them into actual ticket buyers.

 

And "growing the game" as it relates to the Sunbelt...it was tried. It went 60/40. Ok. Tampa, Dallas, Nashville, LA, Anaheim, and San Jose worked. Great. No one's saying move them. Let's move the ones that didn't work. Moving Carolina, Florida, and Arizona isn't some indictment against the markets that did work.

 

44 minutes ago, ~Bear said:

Please, as a person, just stop now.

There's literally no news on the topic of discussion. The conversation will veer back towards the LV team's name when they actually announce a name. Or when something's leaked.

Until then? There's nothing new about that to discuss, so the conversation shifted.

[chcarlson23]

13 hours ago, worcat said:

 

also, didn't Auston Matthews (Born in Scottsdale, AZ) just get drafted #1 by Toronto? Yeah, everyone is correct. the NHL DID NOTHING to help grow the game in the sun belt. You must be furious that a Canadian team took an american from Arizona with the number one pick. Let's hope he doesn't help them win a stanley cup and return their storied franchise back to greatness. I'm wrong, my bad.

Yep... The NHL really didn't do much. USA Hockey however has been doing really good in expanding hockey into new markets trying to get more kids to play the game. Hence players like Auston Matthews. Sure he probably went to a bunch of Yotes games, but USA Hockey really got it going. That's all I'm going to say about this so...

[MEANS]

November 18th. Name, Logo, and Colors.

[nash61]

Las Vegas announcement of name, colors and logo set for mid-November