2023-24 NHL Jersey Changes

[JTernup]

14 hours ago, Ridleylash said:

Eh, I'd disagree. There's too much history wrapped in the current identity to drop it altogether (fans would riot if they rid of the look they just fought to get back), and too much design potential to waste it going for a design that's just "HEY GUIZ U KNOW WE'RE THE CAPITAL OF CANADA RIGHT?!"

I get that fans are probably sentimental about the Roman logo but in a vacuum it's bad. The team is literally named the Senators,  your problem with their branding leaning on being the capital is more a problem with the name than it is any branding choices. 

 

They do have a very tough branding niche to fill with Senators as their name and playing in the capital though. There is already a Canadiens, Maple Leafs, Canucks and even Jets that have their own versions of Canada imagery. Roman Senators just feels like a strange inspiration and has never been done particularly well.

[Survival79]

3 hours ago, Webhamster said:

It's funny because I remember the outrage around here when the Roman concept was unveiled around 1992.  But, like anything, people warmed up to it.

 

If you think the outrage in Ottawa was bad, you should have been on these boards. ABSOLUTE BLOODBATH.

[Ridleylash]

1 hour ago, JTernup said:

I get that fans are probably sentimental about the Roman logo but in a vacuum it's bad. The team is literally named the Senators,  your problem with their branding leaning on being the capital is more a problem with the name than it is any branding choices.

Why does a teams logo HAVE to be an exactly literal interpretation of their name and location, though? Boston doesn't have a brown bear as their primary logo despite being named the Boston Brown Bears, their capital cohort Washington literally just uses their own name as their primary brand identity, the Rangers don't have a hockey-playing cop or cowboy for a primary logo, LA doesn't use a king as their primary logo at all, Seattle only vaguely suggests their namesake in their logo...

 

You're limiting yourself way too much if you try to be perfectly literal in creating a logo. The most iconic hockey logo of all time has literally nothing to do with the city the team is based in, but has become a cultural landmark of its identity anyways.

 

Quote

They do have a very tough branding niche to fill with Senators as their name and playing in the capital though. There is already a Canadiens, Maple Leafs, Canucks and even Jets that have their own versions of Canada imagery. Roman Senators just feels like a strange inspiration and has never been done particularly well.

It's not actually all that strange when you remember that straight clock towers make for pretty boring hockey primary logos, and fat dudes in suits making policies don't make for particularly cool-looking team identities either.

 

The Roman motif simply has more visual flair than being entirely literal; it wouldn't have stuck around this long if it didn't connect with people like a more municipal, Peace Tower-centric identity would.

[IceCap]

2 hours ago, Ridleylash said:

It's not actually all that strange when you remember that straight clock towers make for pretty boring hockey primary logos...

There have been official Peace Tower logos from the team that have been pretty good and could serve as the basis for a primary identity. 

 

The problem with the Roman theme is that it's a bit obtuse. The thinking is "named after the Canadian Senate -> Canadian Senate is named after the Roman Senate -> some Roman Senators were also military officers who commanded centurions." The identity is further muddled by the mascot Spartacat, a play of Spartacus, who led a rebellion against the Roman state. So he should be the last source of inspiration if you're basing an identity after Roman government/military stuff. 

 

But you said fat guys in suits doesn't make for a good identity and the thing is neither do fat guys in togas, which was what most Roman senators during the classical period were. Some were military officers who commanded centurions, but that was a different position from that of Senator, and not all Senators did that. Most got their position by being from rich noble families (nothing ever changes). 

So the whole connection is pretty flimsy. 

 

At least the Peace Tower imagery ties in with the name and city, and is suitably iconic. 

 

Look, I gave up this fight a while ago. The Senators have used the Roman theme for so long that it just is what it is, and there's likely no undoing that. I accept it. But if you want to have a discussion on the identity's merits... well it's gotta be pointed out it's not exactly well constructed or totally sensical. 

 

2 hours ago, Ridleylash said:

it wouldn't have stuck around this long if it didn't connect with people like a more municipal, Peace Tower-centric identity would.

That's a bit revisionist. The Roman theme isn't popular because it connected in a way nothing else could. It's popular because it was the logo when the city got NHL hockey back for the first time in over half a century, endearing it to fans. And because it was the logo for the team when fans today were kids. It's a combination of nostalgia and positive association. 

 

Which is fine. If that's what Sens fans want so be it. But if the Sens had rolled out a Peace Tower logo instead and nothing else was different then that's the logo everyone would love today. 

[JTernup]

4 hours ago, Ridleylash said:

Why does a teams logo HAVE to be an exactly literal interpretation of their name and location, though? Boston doesn't have a brown bear as their primary logo despite being named the Boston Brown Bears, their capital cohort Washington literally just uses their own name as their primary brand identity, the Rangers don't have a hockey-playing cop or cowboy for a primary logo, LA doesn't use a king as their primary logo at all, Seattle only vaguely suggests their namesake in their logo...

It absolutely doesn’t need to be a literal interpretation of the name and I’ve never said it did. Hell, my favorite teams are the Nuggets and Chiefs, neither of which have literal representations and both have what I believe are awesome primary logos. The difference between the Sens and all of your other examples is that all of those actually WORK. In my opinion the Senators’ use of a Roman doesn’t, but I also recognize that the fan base and many others could disagree with that assessment. What is harder to disagree with is that they have never taken that already flawed inspiration and created a logo that is really good. I don’t think they’ve ever even cracked the top 75% of professional sports logos. 
 

To prove this point to myself I went through the rest of the big 4 logos on the mothership and the Clippers are the only equivalent I could find. Their primary logo SUCKS and is not a literal interpretation of a Clipper but I think we can all agree that it sucks because it’s a bad logo and it’s even worse because it is a poor representation of the name. That’s how I feel about the Senators.

 

1 hour ago, IceCap said:

Look, I gave up this fight a while ago. The Senators have used the Roman theme for so long that it just is what it is, and there's likely no undoing that. I accept it. But if you want to have a discussion on the identity's merits... well it's gotta be pointed out it's not exactly well constructed or totally sensical. 

 

That's a bit revisionist. The Roman theme isn't popular because it connected in a way nothing else could. It's popular because it was the logo when the city got NHL hockey back for the first time in over half a century, endearing it to fans. And because it was the logo for the team when fans today were kids. It's a combination of nostalgia and positive association. 

 

Which is fine. If that's what Sens fans want so be it. But if the Sens had rolled out a Peace Tower logo instead and nothing else was different then that's the logo everyone would love today. 

IceCap did a great job explaining some of my issues with the identity but I think this last part is especially prudent. You can’t reasonably compare how beloved a Peace Tower or alternative inspiration design would have been received because we didn’t get those under the same conditions we got the Roman senators.

[tBBP]

I always did wonder what the whole Roman centurion thing was about with Ottawa...now I know.

 

They could always reverse course on their senator imagery and go from Roman to Romulan:

 

 

[CreamSoda]

One of the biggest misses of late has been the Devils new sweaters.  
 

it just looks so bad without the hem stripes and the super huge arm stripes.  
 

what a downgrade from their classic uniform. 

[dont care]

21 hours ago, the admiral said:

Can't agree with you there. I think the original Senators logo was really cool. I like the update better, of course, but there was a lot to like about the original logo. They screwed with it too much by coming up with two different WHOOOA HE'S TURNING OUT OF THE SWEATER TO GLARE AT YOU logos, which is the same level of cornball as the Raiders fan art logo where the hand reveals a skull behind the face, but in actual use. Not to mention their history of terrible sweaters from about 1998 on -- the swooshy one, the Edge redesign, the SNES alt, etc.

 

I think the Peace Tower is compelling as supporting imagery, but the Roman senator concept was a clever one worth committing to. All that Times New Roman O stuff has never done it for me.

But it’s not a Roman senator, it’s a Roman centurion soldier. About the furthest thing from a senator

[The_Admiral]

Facts, schmacts. People look at it and say "oh, it's a Roman senator, clever." And it is clever. Political imagery isn't fertile ground in a country that pretends to take orders from England and actually takes orders from America.

[Nordiks_19]

9 hours ago, CreamSoda said:

One of the biggest misses of late has been the Devils new sweaters.  
 

it just looks so bad without the hem stripes and the super huge arm stripes.  
 

what a downgrade from their classic uniform. 

Say what you want about Lou, but he knows what a clean, classic and untouchable look should be like. And i feel like they'll stick with this look for their Hughes-Hischier era 

[Krudler]

11 hours ago, CreamSoda said:

One of the biggest misses of late has been the Devils new sweaters.  
 

it just looks so bad without the hem stripes and the super huge arm stripes.  
 

what a downgrade from their classic uniform. 

It's a travesty what've they've done to those sweaters. Such seemingly small changes causing such a major downgrade.

[CreamSoda]

2 hours ago, Krudler said:

It's a travesty what've they've done to those sweaters. Such seemingly small changes causing such a major downgrade.

 

Yup....  just for no reason either...

 

 

[Chromatic]

I have no issues with the Senators having a Roman military theme to their identity. Rising to high political office in Ancient Rome essentially required a decorated military service. The term "senator" today still invokes some level of Roman imagery.

 

As far as I'm concerned when you have a somewhat vague name, its perfectly appropriate to lean your identity into a particular direction that may not be explicit in it, so long as whatever you're choosing to depict is not precluded from the term. For example, I think the 'Patriots' explicitly using  minuteman branding, the 'Canucks' leaning into the lumberjack motif, 'Islanders' using a fisherman, 'Texans' having bull imagery' etc.  'Senators' having a Roman bent to it is fine.  It gives the brand something else to latch onto beyond mere location signifiers. 

 

It would be different if it were a very explicit name that all the logos and branding depicted something wildly out of place, like the Pittsburgh Penguins using a wildebeest as their logo or something.

 

 

[JTernup]

50 minutes ago, Chromatic said:

I have no issues with the Senators having a Roman military theme to their identity. Rising to high political office in Ancient Rome essentially required a decorated military service. The term "senator" today still invokes some level of Roman imagery.

 

As far as I'm concerned when you have a somewhat vague name, its perfectly appropriate to lean your identity into a particular direction that may not be explicit in it, so long as whatever you're choosing to depict is not precluded from the term. For example, I think the 'Patriots' explicitly using  minuteman branding, the 'Canucks' leaning into the lumberjack motif, 'Islanders' using a fisherman, 'Texans' having bull imagery' etc.  'Senators' having a Roman bent to it is fine.  It gives the brand something else to latch onto beyond mere location signifiers. 

 

It would be different if it were a very explicit name that all the logos and branding depicted something wildly out of place, like the Pittsburgh Penguins using a wildebeest as their logo or something.

 

 

That's the part of my commentary on Ottawa that keeps getting overlooked though. You can absolutely do that and have a successful brand (pretty much all of those that you listed) if you do it well. The Senators have literally always had one of the worst logos in the Big 4 though. If you have a bad logo and it's only tangentially related to your name you have a mess of a brand identity.

[Chromatic]

1 minute ago, JTernup said:

That's the part of my commentary on Ottawa that keeps getting overlooked though. You can absolutely do that and have a successful brand (pretty much all of those that you listed) if you do it well. The Senators have literally always had one of the worst logos in the Big 4 though. If you have a bad logo and it's only tangentially related to your name you have a mess of a brand identity.

Right, but what the discussion seems to be around is whether or not the idea itself of a Roman theme is a good idea, not the execution. That's what I was commenting on. 

 

I'm not a Senators fan, and their identity has always seemed very "meh" to me, but that has nothing to do with the Roman imagery. If anything I think it adds a bit of sorely needed flavour. I'm open to the debate about the quality of the execution. But if the argument is that they should go with a Big 'O' or a peace tower or whatever instead of the Centurion theming simply because a "Senator" isn't explicitly  a Roman soldier, that's where I disagree. Its not a situation where you're depicting something completely counterintuitive to the identity. Its just not as 1 for 1 as say the Broncos using a horse head or the Jets using a roundel with a Jet in it. 

[gosioux76]

8 minutes ago, JTernup said:

That's the part of my commentary on Ottawa that keeps getting overlooked though. You can absolutely do that and have a successful brand (pretty much all of those that you listed) if you do it well. The Senators have literally always had one of the worst logos in the Big 4 though. If you have a bad logo and it's only tangentially related to your name you have a mess of a brand identity.

 

I'm going to split the difference here. 

 

@Chromatic's analysis is 100% right. I see no problem with the Sens leaning into the Roman motif.  It's just that in the Sens' case, the brand hasn't been resonant outside of their market, and maybe is even questionable within it.

 

To me, that gives the franchise justification for a wholesale rebrand. But I wouldn't necessarily place the blame on the fact that they chose this Roman imagery to build around. I could see a rebrand continuing down that path, only with more appealing design. 

 

 

[IceCap]

51 minutes ago, gosioux76 said:

@Chromatic's analysis is 100% right. I see no problem with the Sens leaning into the Roman motif.  It's just that in the Sens' case, the brand hasn't been resonant outside of their market, and maybe is even questionable within it.

Ottawa is about halfway between Toronto and Montreal, two of the oldest and most established fanbases in the league. They lost their NHL team in the thirties and got it back in the nineties. That's over fifty years where Ottawa's fandom split between the Leafs and Habs. 

 

One of my best friends is from Ottawa. We met in uni (so he's not from a pre-Sens generation) and I asked him early on if he was a Sens fan. He responded like I'd asked him if he ate garbage. He's a Habs fan through and through. 

 

Ottawa has a dedicated fanbase but they're fighting over fifty years of engrained fandom from two of the most popular sports teams in Canada on either end. 

 

My point is the Sens' brand has had trouble resonating within their market, much less outside of it and it has nothing to do with the logos or colours or jersey designs. 

 

53 minutes ago, Chromatic said:

Right, but what the discussion seems to be around is whether or not the idea itself of a Roman theme is a good idea, not the execution.

Meh. It's been executed just fine. They've had misses (both "3D" logos, the swoosh sweater, the Edge look, the SNES alt) but overall it's as good as you're going to get without going complete cartoony. Where they're at now is fine (I'd swap the S alt out for the Peace Tower but that's it). 

 

My contention is that it's not a simple leap from the Canadian Senate to Roman Centurion so many of you want to make it sound like. There are a few hoops it needs to hop through. 

 

And that's fine. Like I said it is what it is and it's engrained.
But it's also got some flaws that are worth bringing up if we're going to analyze it.

 

1 hour ago, Chromatic said:

Rising to high political office in Ancient Rome essentially required a decorated military service.

Not exactly. You could do that sure, but most Senators got their job either by being "officers" who went nowhere near a front or actual centurions or just guys from rich families. You didn't need to be a decorated military man to get into the Senate, and in fact most weren't. 

[WestCoastBias]

I always liked the O and stripes look for the Senators..

[colinturner95]

2 hours ago, CreamSoda said:

 

Yup....  just for no reason either...

 

 

I might be in the wrong thread with this, but I like the updated stripes more than the classic stripes, just seeing them side by side. The lack of a hem stripe however, still sucks. 

[monkeypower]

6 hours ago, Krudler said:

It's a travesty what've they've done to those sweaters. Such seemingly small changes causing such a major downgrade.

 

They made a change to what? Depart from the old era into a new one? But the change was such a minimal thing that was barely a change and was a change that looks like it should have happened with the initial EDGE rollout era of jerseys and then they would have gone back to the old ones by now.

 

It's kind of like the Devils were the sheltered kid with the strict parent in Lamoriello and once the parent was gone the kid decided to try to get a little wild, but they didn't know what that meant and considered drinking two glasses of sparkling apple juice instead of one as "wild".