2011-12 NBA Season

[CubsFanBudMan]

Since I see that I was brought up a couple times, also out of context, let me clarify that I was responding to the use of regular-season MVPs as a measuring stick of greatness.

Regular-season MVPs are almost meaningless. They can be popularity votes or sympathy votes. Total number of rings is slightly more meaningful, but it does not individually define greatness. (See the Robert Horry example.) So I was saying to those that like using either of those arguments: Combine the two concepts and what do you have? The Finals MVP: best player on the best team. How many does a player have, and how many does he have in comparison to the number of rings his teams have? Start there, and the rest falls into place.

And oh, neither Durant or LeBron has one? Yeah, that was also my point. They are writing their places in history right now, and they both still have a lot of basketball ahead of them. They might even get a chance to go head to head *this year*, so why don't we enjoy it instead of taking the ESPN mentality and needing to decide who's better *right now* and then taking the hyperbole a step further and compare either to all-time greats? LeBron was crowned before accomplishing anything, then the Heat had a preseason championship rally. The people who are called "haters" (such a tired, overused and misused term) will give LeBron and the Heat respect when they earn it. What a novel concept.

Although, if the Heat's total when he's done is "not 6, not 7..." then he likely will always be viewed as an underachiever, but he put that on himself. But just one title would go a long way.

[NJTank]

That was the best game of LeBron's career, and he must do it again. I dont know why he has had so many problems in these games but he needs to be greedy and just demand the ball and take it over. He did that tonight and if he does it in Game 7 the Heat will win setting up a fantastic final with OKC.

I'd argue that his game against Detroit in the 2007 ECF (and the one and only time he took over a playoff game) was the best of his career. The kid was supernatural that night. And we've been waiting ever since to see him do it again. My point I suppose is that he's proven he's capable of doing it. Why he doesn't is anyone's guess.

I agree with this. That game against Detroit was something really, really special. One of the best performances I've seen, to be honest. Something I know I will never see anything like again. As to why he hasn't done it again... maybe it's because now he's supposed to? I don't know. I think if that game had gone the other way and he played sub-par down the stretch, we'd have chalked it up to his youth and said he'll get 'em next time like he had nothing to lose. Now he has everything to lose.

Yeah, he was a beast for the entirety of a double digit game. He was a beast in game five's first half. Then the game tightened up and he went eight minutes without a basket in the fourth quarter. I'd have been interested in seeing how he'd have responded had the Celtics taken advantage of an opportunity to tighten that game up in the third when they got some stops down 11, and had about three or four possessions where they got very good looks and couldn't convert.

Back in 2007 the Pistons were the favorites and any thing LeBron did in one of his first big games was viewed as good, but he did not have the pressure he has now, and it is why I would say yesterday was his best game.

[OnWis97]

Where are the LeBron haters now? Winners finish, nuff said.

Let me preface this by stating that I'm not a "Lebron hater." He's one of my favorite players. I'd much rather see him live up to his billing or whatever you want to call it. I get nothing out of seeing him bashed by any and everyone with an opinion. However, one game does not make up for all of his shortcomings in previous playoff games where he just stood around, played hot potato, or as See Red so eloquently put it, "looked to pass it to Haslem."

Let's not forget that it's a lot easier to play great when your team is up by double digits most of the game. All Lebron did tonight was beat hell out of an old and tired Celtics team. A Celtics team that frankly, the Heat should have eliminated long before game seven. It should have ended in five but Miami's "winners" couldn't "finish."

There's no denying LBJ played a great game tonight but let's get real here. The Celtics team I saw tonight was struggling to keep the damned ball in-bounds when they were on offense. How many times did they drop passes etc. and watch helplessly as the ball rolled off the court? Lebron should have lit them up tonight. Talk to me about "winners finishing" after he has a game like tonight's against the Thunder.

Here's what I hope happens, Lebron drops 35 on the Celtics and in the process he makes a -load of crucial late "clutch" baskets.

Here's what will probably happen, Lebron scores 17, pisses himself in the 4th quarter, makes a bunch of nice passes to Udonis Haslem, and prays that D-Wade can carry the day.

What Lebron does or does not do won't matter anyway. The Celtics drained the last drop from the fountain of youth to win game five. It's going to take a colossal choke by the Heat to blow this. And if they do somehow lose this series, their problems run a lot deeper than LBJ's performance in the clutch.

I don't even know what to say about this post.

"it's easy to play great when you're up double digits"

do you know why they were up double digits? Because LeBron was playing :censored:ing great, and that's probably an understatement

"LeBron should have lit them up tonight"

WTF do you call 45-15-5?

"take a colossal choke"

Don't game 5 winners of 2-2 series win the series nearly 90% of the time? Weren't people just counting out the Heat and calling the Big 3 era over?

You say you're not a LeBron hater, then you do nothing but hate. It's like saying "I don't want to be offensive, but you're ugly, your breath stinks, and your moms a whore"

That's true. And nobody is denying it. But as teams get deeper into the playoffs, they can't count on blowouts. Should be win Game 7, they won't blow OKC four times in seven games. They are going to have to win a couple of close ones. And that's where the LeBron skepticism comes in.

I don't dislike him. And I detest Kobe. But while guys like LeBron, Kobe, and Jordan all can go out and play big time playoff games like this, Kobe and Jordan want(ed) the ball at crunch time and most often delivered. LeBron does not seem to want it. And when he get's it he usually misses. He's missed a lot of late free throws as well. He has yet to show that he won't tighten up in a big spot. That was the point of the statement that "it's easy to play well in a blowout." Maybe that's overly simplistic. Because you are right. James was the person most responsible for the blowout. And he did respond to a pressure-packed game...but late in games, he tends to disappear.

[UnclearInitial]

Where are the LeBron haters now? Winners finish, nuff said.

Let me preface this by stating that I'm not a "Lebron hater." He's one of my favorite players. I'd much rather see him live up to his billing or whatever you want to call it. I get nothing out of seeing him bashed by any and everyone with an opinion. However, one game does not make up for all of his shortcomings in previous playoff games where he just stood around, played hot potato, or as See Red so eloquently put it, "looked to pass it to Haslem."

Let's not forget that it's a lot easier to play great when your team is up by double digits most of the game. All Lebron did tonight was beat hell out of an old and tired Celtics team. A Celtics team that frankly, the Heat should have eliminated long before game seven. It should have ended in five but Miami's "winners" couldn't "finish."

There's no denying LBJ played a great game tonight but let's get real here. The Celtics team I saw tonight was struggling to keep the damned ball in-bounds when they were on offense. How many times did they drop passes etc. and watch helplessly as the ball rolled off the court? Lebron should have lit them up tonight. Talk to me about "winners finishing" after he has a game like tonight's against the Thunder.

Here's what I hope happens, Lebron drops 35 on the Celtics and in the process he makes a -load of crucial late "clutch" baskets.

Here's what will probably happen, Lebron scores 17, pisses himself in the 4th quarter, makes a bunch of nice passes to Udonis Haslem, and prays that D-Wade can carry the day.

What Lebron does or does not do won't matter anyway. The Celtics drained the last drop from the fountain of youth to win game five. It's going to take a colossal choke by the Heat to blow this. And if they do somehow lose this series, their problems run a lot deeper than LBJ's performance in the clutch.

I don't even know what to say about this post.

"it's easy to play great when you're up double digits"

do you know why they were up double digits? Because LeBron was playing :censored:ing great, and that's probably an understatement

"LeBron should have lit them up tonight"

WTF do you call 45-15-5?

"take a colossal choke"

Don't game 5 winners of 2-2 series win the series nearly 90% of the time? Weren't people just counting out the Heat and calling the Big 3 era over?

You say you're not a LeBron hater, then you do nothing but hate. It's like saying "I don't want to be offensive, but you're ugly, your breath stinks, and your moms a whore"

That's true. And nobody is denying it. But as teams get deeper into the playoffs, they can't count on blowouts. Should be win Game 7, they won't blow OKC four times in seven games. They are going to have to win a couple of close ones. And that's where the LeBron skepticism comes in.

I don't dislike him. And I detest Kobe. But while guys like LeBron, Kobe, and Jordan all can go out and play big time playoff games like this, Kobe and Jordan want(ed) the ball at crunch time and most often delivered. LeBron does not seem to want it. And when he get's it he usually misses. He's missed a lot of late free throws as well. He has yet to show that he won't tighten up in a big spot. That was the point of the statement that "it's easy to play well in a blowout." Maybe that's overly simplistic. Because you are right. James was the person most responsible for the blowout. And he did respond to a pressure-packed game...but late in games, he tends to disappear.

But he has.

[infrared41]

You say you're not a LeBron hater, then you do nothing but hate. It's like saying "I don't want to be offensive, but you're ugly, your breath stinks, and your moms a whore"

It pains me to say it, but you do make a fair point. It does come off like I'm bashing Lebron. So let me rephrase my original point.

Lebron had an incredible game last night. All I was trying to say was that one game doesn't wipe out all the other criticism. Other than that, I'm not going to debate a 12 year old.

[tBBP]

A twice-banned 12-year-old, at that.

[shaydre1019]

I feel like its never good enough with Lebron though. I always hear "he's good but he's a regular season player and nothing more" yesterday was his 11th or 12th 40+ point playoff game. He's the only reason the heat are still in the playoffs. The clerics take a series Lead and "they have too much experience" and yesterday he turned them into "an old team"

If he wins one this yr everyone will still say things like "well he's only got one " and "it took him this long?"

He was destined for failure with the cavs, I honestly don't think anyone could've taken that team as far as he did. I was disappointed when he left cle but looking back I seemed like they didn't try to get any help.

If any of the other great players mentioned left their team they'd still be playoff teams. Lebron leaves and they end up with the no 1 pick a year after.

You won't see kd or Kobe d'ing up kg, but Lebron does what he has to do to win. That's why IMO he's completely deserving of the MVP.

Please go read the article I posted on the last page if you haven't done so already.

[infrared41]

I feel like its never good enough with Lebron though. I always hear "he's good but he's a regular season player and nothing more" yesterday was his 11th or 12th 40+ point playoff game. He's the only reason the heat are still in the playoffs. The clerics take a series Lead and "they have too much experience" and yesterday he turned them into "an old team"

If he wins one this yr everyone will still say things like "well he's only got one " and "it took him this long?"

Another good point.

Serious question to all of us, from the "haters" right on through the "I like him but..." crowd. Have we let "The Decision" and the "Not one, not two, not three..." circus of a press conference that followed cloud our judgement to the point that no matter what Lebron does, we'll always respond with "yeah, but...?"

I'm man enough to admit that I might be doing that.

Also, who are "the clerics?"

[infrared41]

I think this is interesting. It probably helps explain why this Lakers fan is all but rooting for the f-ing Celtics to win the ECF.

A Tale of Two Welcome Parties.

[Island_Style]

When a guy has tattoos on him the says "witness history" and "Chosen One" Well.... He better play like it. Especially when he says things like " 4 5 6 7 rings blah blah blah" Just to choke away the finals. Im a hater. Overrated piece of trash headcase. Miami wont win because he can't handle pressure. That is why he tries to convince himself through tattoos and television specials. That game six performance don't mean dick if you cant close it with a ring. Remember that awesome game winner against Orlando a couple of years ago? Then what happened?

[Lights Out]

Wow. Gotta love how people quote "Not one, not two, not three" and leave out the part where LeBron becomes serious and says, "We believe we can win multiple championships if we do things the right way". How is that unreasonable?

Derrick Rose, Shaq, Pat Riley (with the Lakers)... hell, even Mickaël freaking Piétrus have publicly guaranteed titles before... yet LeBron gets hate merely for thinking he can win them.

As for "The Decision", let's not pretend like ESPN wouldn't have whipped up a detestable frenzy about the whole thing even if LeBron didn't go on air. This is ESPN we're talking about, after all.

[Drew22]

[OnWis97]

I feel like its never good enough with Lebron though. I always hear "he's good but he's a regular season player and nothing more" yesterday was his 11th or 12th 40+ point playoff game. He's the only reason the heat are still in the playoffs. The clerics take a series Lead and "they have too much experience" and yesterday he turned them into "an old team"

If he wins one this yr everyone will still say things like "well he's only got one " and "it took him this long?"

Another good point.

Serious question to all of us, from the "haters" right on through the "I like him but..." crowd. Have we let "The Decision" and the "Not one, not two, not three..." circus of a press conference that followed cloud our judgement to the point that no matter what Lebron does, we'll always respond with "yeah, but...?"

I'm man enough to admit that I might be doing that.

Also, who are "the clerics?"

Lots of people have. If they win the next five then it's just "but he had to go to a superteam". As soon as he chose Miami (particularly in this way) he was doomed to be criticized forever. The best that could happen is that they win a bunch, he wins MVP every time, and does so with some Jordan-esqe moments. Even if they win a couple, if they fall short and he does not step up in crunch time, it'll be a part of his legacy.

Look, I know that he pretty much single-handily brought Cleveland to the finals. That alone is more impressive than anything he'll do with the Heat. I also think championships are overrated, even in Basketball. If you want to win a bunch of titles, don't play your first seven years in a cold weather, non-cosmopolitan city on a tradition-free franchise. Be Kobe...demand to go to a big market team, wait for another big time player to sign to the glitzy team and win your rings and be praised for it.

Has the hate gone overboard? Absolutely. Is LeBron one of the few most talented (if not the #1 most talented) players we've seen in our lifetimes? Absolutely. Did he have the misfortune of coming of age in an era with so much scruitiny? Yes. But there are legit criticsims. He's not MJ because MJ stepped up EVERY time. He wanted the ball because he knew he was the best. He knew he gave them the best chance to win. Does LBJ have that confidence; arrognace, really? Does he want the ball? When he gets it does he usually bury it the way MJ did? He's great. He's a hall of famer right now. He makes teams better. But until he stops tightening up at key times, he'll always be a peg below the absolute best.

[Island_Style]

I will say this. The dumping of beer on LeBron was beyond trashy. I have fun with sports and I get intense but, that is over the top.

[Billy B]

I don't like LeBron at all, but after reading this thread he's starting to grow. I understand not liking him for many of his acions, but to say that he's no he best player in the league is just wrong. I love Derrick Rose, the way he plays the game, how he handles himself in the media, and his personality in general, but I'll quickly recognize that LeBron is a better player. He's a top three scorer, can play pretty much any position, and can shut down any player in the league that's not a center. He's also a great passer, can rebound, and does all this without sitting out much if at all. I really don't think there's a case to be made that he's not the best player in the league right now.

Kinda funny that there's an advertisement for LeBron James Basketball Dunk at the bottom of this page. Guess his name has been typed out a few times on this page.

[tBBP]

I just want to mention this in regards toLeBron finishing and MJ wanting the ball everytime:

"Who's open?"

"Paxson."

Work that out.

[shaydre1019]

Here's a little reading material

Lebron (the overrated piece of trash headcase) has a higher percentage of game winning/tying shots in the playoffs than Kobe.

http://chasing23.com/kobe-bryant-vs-lebron-james-game-winning-shots/

[Island_Style]

Here's a little reading material

Lebron (the overrated piece of trash headcase) has a higher percentage of game winning/tying shots in the playoffs than Kobe.

http://chasing23.com/kobe-bryant-vs-lebron-james-game-winning-shots/

OPOTH (my new Lebron nickname) has zero rings. Win he wins that ring I will bow down. There is no reason for OPOTH not to have a ring right now. Should have handled Dallas. Instead, he hid under a rock.

Kobe goes prime when he needs to. The man has five rings. FIVE. That is more than most franchises. The NBA is a different sport. Rings matter when judging top tier talent. If he wins that ring he will get his due. So far he isn't living up to the "Chosen One". What am I witnessing?

[Kramerica Industries]

Three of those rings riding Shaq's coattails.

[Island_Style]

Three of those rings riding Shaq's coattails.

And the other two?