panthers_2012 Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 The problem with a controlling owner is the team can go downhill fast after the "honeymoon" period. I saw this first hand working with the Crushers and the new owner is having to basically rebuild the team and rebuild fan loyalty. If he keeps acting like this, the NHL made a big mistake in granting him a franchise, IMO. And on a side note, black and gold for prospective colors? Like we don't have enough of that in the NHL... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old School Fool Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 The Penguins vacated Vegas Gold so it's the Knights color for the taking as far as I'm concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 4 hours ago, twi said: I'm not sure I understand the criticism of the owner or team being involved in the design process given how some of the same folks were in favor of teams standing up for themselves when RBK allegedly ruined hockey jersey design. Any unveiling gets huge overreactions here, let's wait until the actual stuff is released on this one. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaumatrope Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 The dangers of having a micromanaging owner goes well beyond bad branding (although I realize thats a particular area of interest for us). Whenever an owner decides that they know better than the trained professionals (that they've hired), it can often lead to dysfunctional organizations both on and off the playing surface. As has already been pointed out in this thread, Foley's involvement in the branding process has already resulted in some frustration and missed opportunities. By insisting on "___ Knights" he has presented the organization with a marketing handicap that it can ill afford. I know a lot has been said about this already, but its important to remember that Las Vegas is very much a city of transplants, and finding a way to convert the locals into die hard Las Vegas fans is critical for any team that may call the city home. This is doubly true for hockey as the sport doesn't command the same kind of attention that football or basketball would. As the first pro team in the city (and the state), Foley (and the NHL) had an amazing opportunity to become the team for Las Vegas. Whatever cultural deficits hockey may have in Las Vegas could have been overcome by a strong play for local pride. Instead we clearly have an owner that sees the team as his, and everyone else in Las Vegas is welcome to pay to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jp1409 Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 There's a difference between being involved and dictating every stupid idea he's got... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twi Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 1 hour ago, jp1409 said: There's a difference between being involved and dictating every stupid idea he's got... A huge difference. I just don't think we've gotten close to that line yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYYNYR Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 On 10/22/2016 at 8:06 PM, JGraz15 said: Not good. "ESPN.com: Would you like to tell me the name? Foley: I will tell you it's going to be "something Knights." ESPN.com: You could get ahead of the news cycle if you told me. Foley: I could, but we're going to announce it Nov. 18. You heard George say, "Even my wife doesn't know." ESPN.com: How involved have you been in not just the name but also the design of the jersey and the color scheme? Foley: Completely involved. I'm trying to get Adidas to come around to my way of thinking, in terms of how I want this jersey to look and the power and the culture I want it to evoke. And they're getting there. But I'm trying to get one color more bold instead of recessive, and I believe we'll get it done next week. If we do, we can start printing hats and T-shirts and gym bags. We won't have jerseys probably until mid-December, but we'll have everything else. This will be powerful. ESPN.com: Do you want to share the color scheme with me? Foley: Well, as I've said, it will have some desert influences. Because it's Knights, there's obviously going to be some steel gray somewhere. Probably have some gold because that makes sense, and most teams have black." http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/17827608/nhl-las-vegas-expansion-team-owner-bill-foley-says-team-powerful-force-fans I'm holding out hope that, reading the entire article, it sounds like it was written during the preseason because there are references to the Frozen Fury and handing the key over from the Kings to the Knights. And things change a lot in a few weeks ! Also holding out hope because, as i bolded above, the first thing he mentions with color scheme is "desert influences." I'm hoping that means some brick reds/ purples/magentas/something other than the boring, borderline-somber colors he's otherwise picked (black/vegas gold/grey). ...also, he claims to have the away jersey complete. Hrm...So I guess whatever desert color(s) he picked is the accent on the white, but he's hoping for it to be the primary hue on the home jersey? Is that everyone else's takeaway? We've also seen the article with the team rep talking about about pretty classic home and aways (traditional may have been the word used) and then a kinda imaginative, crazy third. However, Icethetics has talked about each team starting next year with only 2 sweaters (I guess because of the switch to adidas???). Anyone care to come up with the basic design of the Knights' unis? We know: 1. Don't bother making a third, as we won't see it for a few years. 2. Traditional designs on home and away. 3. Away is complete. 4. Color scheme of (desert influence?) + black + gold + silver 5. Silver mesh (to imply armor?) over top of the home sweater. 6. Delays on the home jersey, due to the color not popping. Wants it brighter...Possibly the "desert" color is the primary? 7. It's gonna have a knight somewhere, and possibly a black knight. 8. It's all about creating something "imposing" for this owner. And I assume: 1. League/ adidas is maybe pushing him to go against the idea of the silver/grey uniform because then you're having white vs. grey for entire season... 2. League/adidas doesn't want Vegas to look too much like the Kings or the Coyotes, especially as they are regional rivals. 3. This is a new, expansion team, and the idea of going with neon or crazy colors (especially for Vegas) was probably given to Foley, and he at least initially balked. Think of the recent All Star Game designs. I'm sure this was pushed on Vegas. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VikWings Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 14 hours ago, Brass said: I can't wait their logo package to not be half as good as something you could find in the Concepts section. I can't wait for the inevitable roundel logo as part of the set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gothamite Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 1 hour ago, twi said: A huge difference. I just don't think we've gotten close to that line yet. Well, there's certainly indications in that direction. Do we have any counter-examples of situations where he has deferred to the professionals he's hired, except where the league has already forced him to? The Green Bay Packers Uniform Database! Now in a handy blog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBTV Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 The overwhelming majority of us are not professional designers but make good concepts and appreciate good design. A sizesble number of members have also harshly (but fairly in most cases) criticized some of what the professional designers at Nike, UA, etc have come up with, so I see no problem with him driving this process. A professional may be able to execute the concept better than an amateur, but as far as the actual ideas go, there's no problem with him taking the lead there, especially since he essentially came up with the branding and knows more than anyone what message or feeling the uniforms are supposed to convey. That doesnt mean they won't suck, because this guy doesn't sound like he gets it, but at least as of now there's no reason to criticize him for overruling adidas. "The views expressed here are mine and do not reflect the official opinion of my employer or the organization through which the Internet was accessed." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twi Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 3 hours ago, Gothamite said: Well, there's certainly indications in that direction. Do we have any counter-examples of situations where he has deferred to the professionals he's hired, except where the league has already forced him to? I don't believe much has happened yet to demonstrate either way. Is ticket pricing set yet, or just for deposits? I doubt he set those. I don't agree that getting your multi-million dollar purchase to be branded the way you want is an indication of overly involved owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gothamite Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 It's not just that he wants to brand it the way he wants to brand it. It's that there's already been so much conflict over the branding, between him and Adidas, between him and the league. That doesn't speak well of his involvement so far. The Green Bay Packers Uniform Database! Now in a handy blog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreamSoda Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 I have worked for a boss that made us designers do literally over a hundred logos. Then in the end he went with the original logo we created with a POP of orange added. Sound familiar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorMade Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Quote Foley: I can't believe it. Why is this name this important? Once it became important, then of course I want to make it more important. My job is to keep it in the news. We have the NFL football going on, college football going on, hockey's getting ready to start its regular season. I need attention. I like the attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBGKon Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 6 hours ago, NYYNYR said: I'm holding out hope that, reading the entire article, it sounds like it was written during the preseason because there are references to the Frozen Fury and handing the key over from the Kings to the Knights. And things change a lot in a few weeks ! Also holding out hope because, as i bolded above, the first thing he mentions with color scheme is "desert influences." I'm hoping that means some brick reds/ purples/magentas/something other than the boring, borderline-somber colors he's otherwise picked (black/vegas gold/grey). ...also, he claims to have the away jersey complete. Hrm...So I guess whatever desert color(s) he picked is the accent on the white, but he's hoping for it to be the primary hue on the home jersey? Is that everyone else's takeaway? We've also seen the article with the team rep talking about about pretty classic home and aways (traditional may have been the word used) and then a kinda imaginative, crazy third. However, Icethetics has talked about each team starting next year with only 2 sweaters (I guess because of the switch to adidas???). Anyone care to come up with the basic design of the Knights' unis? We know: 1. Don't bother making a third, as we won't see it for a few years. 2. Traditional designs on home and away. 3. Away is complete. 4. Color scheme of (desert influence?) + black + gold + silver 5. Silver mesh (to imply armor?) over top of the home sweater. 6. Delays on the home jersey, due to the color not popping. Wants it brighter...Possibly the "desert" color is the primary? 7. It's gonna have a knight somewhere, and possibly a black knight. 8. It's all about creating something "imposing" for this owner. And I assume: 1. League/ adidas is maybe pushing him to go against the idea of the silver/grey uniform because then you're having white vs. grey for entire season... 2. League/adidas doesn't want Vegas to look too much like the Kings or the Coyotes, especially as they are regional rivals. 3. This is a new, expansion team, and the idea of going with neon or crazy colors (especially for Vegas) was probably given to Foley, and he at least initially balked. Think of the recent All Star Game designs. I'm sure this was pushed on Vegas. Thoughts? I kinda hope some kind of fuschia/red-violet is the desert color, since sunsets in the desert have that shade and would complement the other colors named. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oso Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 14 hours ago, Thaumatrope said: By insisting on "___ Knights" he has presented the organization with a marketing handicap that it can ill afford. I know a lot has been said about this already, but its important to remember that Las Vegas is very much a city of transplants, and finding a way to convert the locals into die hard Las Vegas fans is critical for any team that may call the city home. This is doubly true for hockey as the sport doesn't command the same kind of attention that football or basketball would. As the first pro team in the city (and the state), Foley (and the NHL) had an amazing opportunity to become the team for Las Vegas. Whatever cultural deficits hockey may have in Las Vegas could have been overcome by a strong play for local pride. Instead we clearly have an owner that sees the team as his, and everyone else in Las Vegas is welcome to pay to watch. This absolutely summarizes Bill Foley's approach to naming the franchise in a nutshell. From Day 1, he has laid the groundwork as clear as the day is long that this is HIS world and the Vegas residents are just placeholders in it. The "____Knights" concept has been panned from the moment it became obvious Bill was hell bent on Black Knights, which would 100 percent be the name if Army hadn't intervened. From the get go, fan input hasn't mattered to him when it came to branding and he gave some panned and garbage excuses for shooting down every name the fans seemed to be in favor of. You said it best. This was an opportunity for him to cement this franchise as Las Vegas' team. They will forever be the first and no matter what goes down, will be the first to call Vegas its original home. Yet, his "my way or the highway" when coming to naming the team (proven by his "I paid $500 million for the team and should be able to call it whatever I want which was first written off as a joke but really doesn't seem to be) starting things off on poor footing. And as you also elaborated, this isn't football where its name in the sports landscape sells itself. Ultimately, I am more and more convinced the Raiders are coming to town. Bill has now until then to try and capture the town as a hockey market. Once the Raiders come rolling in, those casual sports fans and non hockey purists are more likely to take their money to them. Sustainability will be determined by Bill's willingness to at least take some fan input. If the naming process is any indication of what's to come, I am not feeling too confident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorback447 Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 3 hours ago, Oso said: This absolutely summarizes Bill Foley's approach to naming the franchise in a nutshell. From Day 1, he has laid the groundwork as clear as the day is long that this is HIS world and the Vegas residents are just placeholders in it. The "____Knights" concept has been panned from the moment it became obvious Bill was hell bent on Black Knights, which would 100 percent be the name if Army hadn't intervened. From the get go, fan input hasn't mattered to him when it came to branding and he gave some panned and garbage excuses for shooting down every name the fans seemed to be in favor of. You said it best. This was an opportunity for him to cement this franchise as Las Vegas' team. They will forever be the first and no matter what goes down, will be the first to call Vegas its original home. Yet, his "my way or the highway" when coming to naming the team (proven by his "I paid $500 million for the team and should be able to call it whatever I want which was first written off as a joke but really doesn't seem to be) starting things off on poor footing. And as you also elaborated, this isn't football where its name in the sports landscape sells itself. Ultimately, I am more and more convinced the Raiders are coming to town. Bill has now until then to try and capture the town as a hockey market. Once the Raiders come rolling in, those casual sports fans and non hockey purists are more likely to take their money to them. Sustainability will be determined by Bill's willingness to at least take some fan input. If the naming process is any indication of what's to come, I am not feeling too confident. But hey at least it will be fun to occasionaly wear the Las Vegas Knights alternate uniforms when playing as the Quebec Nordiques on NHL '25. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont care Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 5 hours ago, razorback447 said: But hey at least it will be fun to occasionaly wear the Las Vegas Knights alternate uniforms when playing as the Quebec Nordiques on NHL '25. No the coyotes will move the Quebec before them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerslionspistonshabs Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Am I the only one who's still contemplating whether this is all one big joke? The NHL.....in Las Vegas! Is this real life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianLion Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Oh it's real alright. Although it's literally turning into Charlotte Bobcats 2.0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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