European Super League

[waltere]

3 hours ago, Rockstar Matt said:

Or teams like Juve, who’s been eliminated by Porto, Ajax and Lyon in CL in the last few years and surely haven’t shown the ability to actually earn their place among the elite clubs.

 

Juventus have consistently been one of the top 3 or 4 teams in one of the top 3 or 4 leagues in the world for decades by this point. I would also argue that consistently making the CL knockout stages in the way they do in and of itself puts you in elite club territory.

 

There's plenty of argument to be had about which teams do or don't "deserve" a place in this stupid thing, but trying to put Juve in the latter camp strikes me as a bit mad.

[Rockstar Matt]

7 minutes ago, waltere said:

 

Juventus have consistently been one of the top 3 or 4 teams in one of the top 3 or 4 leagues in the world for decades by this point. I would also argue that by consistently making the CL knockout stages in the way they do in and of itself puts you in elite club territory.

 

There's plenty of argument to be had about which teams do or don't "deserve" a place in this stupid thing, but trying to put Juve in the latter camp strikes me as a bit mad.

That’s fair and I’d agree with that. I probably could have worded that better. 
 

They certainly have world-class players and should be/are perennial UCL contenders. I was just using them as an example because they’ve been losing in the knockouts to teams who weren’t even invited to participate in the ESL despite the fact they’ve been the best Italian team by far these last 5-10 years. 
 

Kinda like, if a team as good as Juve struggles to get past these “lesser” teams in Champions League, how can anyone claim the ESL to be the “elite” European competition? 
 

If anything, it shows how difficult and competitive the UCL really is. 

[DEAD!]

41 minutes ago, waltere said:

 

Juventus have consistently been one of the top 3 or 4 teams in one of the top 3 or 4 leagues in the world for decades by this point. I would also argue that by consistently making the CL knockout stages in the way they do in and of itself puts you in elite club territory.

 

There's plenty of argument to be had about which teams do or don't "deserve" a place in this stupid thing, but trying to put Juve in the latter camp strikes me as a bit mad.

 

I tend to agree with that. I mean, if the number of Champions cup wins were used to determine "elite" status, then Juventus would have as much argument as ... um.... Nottingham Forest and Porto. The knockout stages are more crapshoots than anything else. It can depend on the draw, injuries etc. 

[waltere]

24 minutes ago, Rockstar Matt said:

That’s fair and I’d agree with that. I probably could have worded that better. 
 

They certainly have world-class players and should be/are perennial UCL contenders. I was just using them as an example because they’ve been losing in the knockouts to teams who weren’t even invited to participate in the ESL despite the fact they’ve been the best Italian team by far these last 5-10 years. 
 

Kinda like, if a team as good as Juve struggles to get past these “lesser” teams in Champions League, how can anyone claim the ESL to be the “elite” European competition? 
 

If anything, it shows how difficult and competitive the UCL really is. 

 

I don't disagree with any of this.

 

I think the issue (and a large part of why this idea blows so hard) is that it's not setting out to include Europe's "best teams" as such, but rather the "biggest clubs" - two things which do not always entirely go hand in hand.

 

Although even then I'm still struggling to find any way to look at it where Tottenham's presence isn't completely ludicrous. 

[DEAD!]

2 minutes ago, waltere said:

Although even then I'm still struggling to find any way to look at it where Tottenham's presence isn't completely ludicrous. 

No need to struggle... just laugh. 

[mcj882000]

So if I have this whole mess right, it's a bunch of spoiled rich teams wanting to make their own league so they don't ever have to worry about potential relgation, and to make even more obscene amounts of money, vs. two of the most corrupt institutions in all of sports? 

...Is there any way we can have both sides lose?

[DG_ThenNowForever]

24 minutes ago, mcj882000 said:

So if I have this whole mess right, it's a bunch of spoiled rich teams wanting to make their own league so they don't ever have to worry about potential relgation, and to make even more obscene amounts of money, vs. two of the most corrupt institutions in all of sports? 

...Is there any way we can have both sides lose?

 

Yes. They go into a protracted war with each other and the best of Europe defects to either Germany or the US.

[Kramerica Industries]

On 4/19/2021 at 7:55 PM, waltere said:

 

Juventus have consistently been one of the top 3 or 4 teams in one of the top 3 or 4 leagues in the world for decades by this point. I would also argue that consistently making the CL knockout stages in the way they do in and of itself puts you in elite club territory.

 

There's plenty of argument to be had about which teams do or don't "deserve" a place in this stupid thing, but trying to put Juve in the latter camp strikes me as a bit mad.

 

This is true. Juventus is a disgusting, corrupt club that thrives on deception, fraud, and thievery within Serie A, but, if we're using Champions League performance as a hallmark for "Super League worthiness", then reluctantly I must agree that they belong there.

 

EDIT: fixed formatting

[Digby]

It’s not that Juve doesn’t deserve to be there, but they are probably pissed that they keep losing to relative midtable types when they’ve very obviously swung for the fences. New format for a club like them would give them a better shot at best and saves face at worst. 
 

really the idea here shields the likes of Juve who always spend too much money to crash out early, and Liverpool who will be lucky to even make Europa next year, and Arsenal where the joke writes itself, etc. It’s entitlement where recent years show it’s unearned, to say nothing of the diminished product it will provide even beyond that.
 

Tottenham remains not a big club though. But the likes of them and Atletico are in the sweet spot; nobody would expect them to win a Super League title, yet they’ll make more money finishing 14th there than they would finishing 5th domestically.

[GDAWG]

Good for PSG, Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund for not joining this league.

[UnclearInitial]

I am not at all opposed to structural change within European soccer, and I’m pretty sure I even posted a proposal for a European League in the reel-line-mint thread. But this proposal is only meant to shield the clubs who have spectacularly :censored:ed up their finances from  any risk. The solution to the  arms race against clubs owned by literal nation states should have been to acknowledge that the current model is uncompetitive, and that a pan-European league placed on top of the existing pyramid could institute a salary cap and a limit on transfer fees between those giant clubs. But that would have meant that a few of the clubs who have been mismanaged for years might be left out of the big boys club for a while. Or the other option would have been to restructure for a few years, clean the books, but they’re afraid of being able to get back to the top, despite all the structural advantages already going their way.
 

I really hope the national leagues kick them out, but I’m doubtful that the other clubs will ever choose competitive integrity over money

 

Though I must admit, Florentino Perez using a clown show such as El Chiringuito as the place where to lay out his vision, where he cries poor and then jokes about buying Mbappe, was legitimately hilarious if it wasn’t also disgusting.

[Red Comet]

11 hours ago, waltere said:

Although even then I'm still struggling to find any way to look at it where Tottenham's presence isn't completely ludicrous. 

IIRC, Tottenham has a relatively large following in the US. Probably there for a big TV contract in America more than any actual talent. 

[DG_ThenNowForever]

10 minutes ago, Red Comet said:

IIRC, Tottenham has a relatively large following in the US. Probably there for a big TV contract in America more than any actual talent. 

 

It's Bill Simmons' fault, isn't it?

[DEAD!]

31 minutes ago, Red Comet said:

IIRC, Tottenham has a relatively large following in the US. Probably there for a big TV contract in America more than any actual talent. 

Ah, they're the Toronto Maple Leafs of English football... 

[crashcarson15]

17 hours ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

So, yeah, this Super League would make the richest owners even richer.  I don't care.  What I care about is that this league will promote the highest level of competition, the competition amongst the biggest clubs, and also that these clubs will have to pay players a great deal of money in order to keep up with their gargantuan peers. This is unquestionably in fans' interest.  And I, being a fan, approve.

 

From a player’s perspective, the end result of a Super League is almost certainly lower player wages, perhaps drastically so, either through a formal salary cap in the competition, or simply through the impacts of a closed cartel system. The massively-in-debt clubs are already paying players a great deal of money in order to keep up with their gargantuan peers (and would very much like to stop doing that), and if you only have 15 clubs that represent the “highest level” of competition — with potentially slashed revenues for clubs outside that group — it’s pretty damn easy to drive down wages in the long run, particularly in a sport where there is no shortage of elite-level talent.

[MJWalker45]

6 minutes ago, crashcarson15 said:

From a player’s perspective, the end result of a Super League is almost certainly lower player wages, perhaps drastically so, either through a formal salary cap in the competition, or simply through the impacts of a closed cartel system. The massively-in-debt clubs are already paying players a great deal of money in order to keep up with their gargantuan peers (and would very much like to stop doing that), and if you only have 15 clubs that represent the “highest level” of competition — with potentially slashed revenues for clubs outside that group — it’s pretty damn easy to drive down wages in the long run, particularly in a sport where there is no shortage of elite-level talent.

They're also looking at a salary cap within the Super League, I wonder if their actual intent is to have that leach down into the domestic leagues as well. 

[Ferdinand Cesarano]

14 minutes ago, crashcarson15 said:

17 hours ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

What I care about is that this league will promote the highest level of competition, the competition amongst the biggest clubs, and also that these clubs will have to pay players a great deal of money in order to keep up with their gargantuan peers. This is unquestionably in fans' interest.  And I, being a fan, approve.

 

From a player’s perspective, the end result of a Super League is almost certainly lower player wages, perhaps drastically so, either through a formal salary cap in the competition, or simply through the impacts of a closed cartel system. The massively-in-debt clubs are already paying players a great deal of money in order to keep up with their gargantuan peers (and would very much like to stop doing that), and if you only have 15 clubs that represent the “highest level” of competition — with potentially slashed revenues for clubs outside that group — it’s pretty damn easy to drive down wages in the long run, particularly in a sport where there is no shortage of elite-level talent.

 

These clubs are already the most attractive clubs in the world, with the biggest global followings. Skimping on player wages would destroy that, thereby undercutting the very premise of the league as a union of football's giants.

 

So these teams will continue to pay players huge wages, not because they are humanitarians who love players, but as an investment to protect their own elite status.

[TrueYankee26]

1 hour ago, DEAD! said:

Ah, they're the Toronto Maple Leafs of English football... 

Similar colors too.

[TrueYankee26]

10 hours ago, GDAWG said:

Good for PSG, Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund for not joining this league.

When I saw ESL say they were going for 15 I knew those were the 3 teams that said no.

[Sport]

Is this a season long tournament, but these teams remain in the Premier League (or whatever) otherwise or a new league that these clubs will play every game inside of? 

 

  

3 hours ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

 

It's Bill Simmons' fault, isn't it?

 

I watched the Amazon Prime series on Tottenham last year and was considering offering them my support, but if Simmons is a fan then I just can't.