Los Angeles NFL Brands Discussion

[The_Admiral]

I don't think there should have been a second team at all, Chargers, Raiders, or otherwise. Not in five years, not in any years. With the unique nature of the Los Angeles market and the damage the league did to it in the inter-Ram-num, one team is all it can handle. But the NFL, that most American of leagues, has to come back for seconds before it's done eating what's already on its plate.

[Lights Out]

2 hours ago, colortv said:

The NFL of all things is not going to be the exception to the rule and fail.

 

Too late, it's already happened.

[colortv]

31 minutes ago, IceCap said:

I had no idea I had free rent in your head. I'll have to see if I sublet that out.

 

The Bucs have more fans in their stadium on average per gameday then the Chargers have had since moving to LA.

 

I want you to listen to this, because it's important. Market size is meaningless, it's the fanbase that counts. The current Winnipeg Jets in the NHL started off life as the Atlanta Thrashers.

Atlanta's metro area has a population of 5,949,951. Winnipeg's metro area has a population of 778,489. It doesn't even break a million, and Atlanta is pushing six million! Know what though? The Jets have, since moving from Atlanta to Winnipeg, made more money, sold more merch, and have risen in franchise value. Now why is that? Well Atlanta may dwarf Winnipeg in terms of population and even wealth, but Winnipeg? Winnipeg has more hockey fans in those 778,489 than Atlanta does in their 5,949,951.

 

So yes. LA is huge. Yes, LA has the sheer population needed to support two NFL teams. That doesn't mean the Chargers will be a success though, because all 18,679,763 people of greater LA means nothing if not enough of them are Chargers fans. I know there are enough Rams fans in that group. And enough Raiders fans. Not enough Chargers fans though.

 

That's all well and good, but you want it both ways.

On one hand you claim that the Chargers will present a family friendly venue that will attract families and that fans from San Diego will come up for the games. On the other hand you claim that the Chargers will be just fine if they sell the vast majority of their tickets to visiting team fans because their money's as good as anyone else's.

 

You can either have the Chargers who are building their own niche in LA or the Chargers surviving off of the ability of road fans to swarm the stadium, but you can't have both. I'd ask you which you'd prefer, but that's irrelevant. Observable reality has shown us it's the latter.

 

 

I truly believe two LA teams can succeed. The problems are...

1) They rushed both to market. LA needed to be handled delicately after so long without NFL football. The Rams were the best choice to go first, but they really needed to wait five years or so before moving another team in.

 

2) They chose the wrong team. The Chargers NEVER had much of a following in LA. Certainly not as much as the Raiders had, and continue to have. The Raiders should have been that second team. They have a built-in fanbase that remained loyal even after they moved back to Oakland, meaning you could afford to wait five years to move them back. The LA Raiders faithful aren't going anywhere and won't be won over by the Rams in the interim.

It was the height of the NFL's arrogance that they felt ANY two LA teams would do. Again, the Rams were a smart choice (one Goodell fought against, but still) but the Chargers were always going to be a mess. Again, the Chargers have sold $50 million in PSLs compared to $500 million worth for the Rams. In the same G-ddamn stadium. Puts a damper on your "the Chargers will be fine once they get into a bigger building" argument.

 

1. Not sure why you constantly feel the need to throw potshot insults, we're having a discussion not an argument. For some reason everyone on this board is testy as another poster mentioned in the NFL changes thread.

 

2. Yes, you can have it both ways. Why not? One group of fans doesn't preclude the other. It's an 80k seat stadium with 24 million people in Southern California. You can have both.

 

3. I don't disagree that the Chargers would/will have growing pains. 

 

4. Please stop comparing hockey teams in the sunbelt to an NFL team in the 2nd biggest sports market in the US/Canada. It's apples and oranges.

[colortv]

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28998950/rams-coo-says-new-logos-colors-change-criticism

[upperV03]

2 hours ago, colortv said:

 

 

2 hours ago, colortv said:

 

Quoting your own posts with gifs? Especially these gifs? Bold move. And a really bad one at that.

[Quillz]

58 minutes ago, colortv said:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28998950/rams-coo-says-new-logos-colors-change-criticism

To the surprise of no one. 

[IceCap]

1 hour ago, colortv said:

1. Not sure why you constantly feel the need to throw potshot insults, we're having a discussion not an argument. For some reason everyone on this board is testy as another poster mentioned in the NFL changes thread.

 

You're the one who decided to include Tampa in your list of metro areas "since Ice Cap has been so vocal in here." You made it personal, my dude. Not me.

 

Quote

Yes, you can have it both ways. Why not? One group of fans doesn't preclude the other. It's an 80k seat stadium with 24 million people in Southern California. You can have both.

 

Because the Chargers have been in LA for three years and they've shown no indication they're able to draw in families from either LA or SD.

 

Quote

I don't disagree that the Chargers would/will have growing pains. 

Trailing the Rams in terms of PSLs $500 million to $50 million is a hell of a growing pain.

 

Quote

Please stop comparing hockey teams in the sunbelt to an NFL team in the 2nd biggest sports market in the US/Canada. It's apples and oranges.

 

Not really? My underlying point is that total population means nothing if there aren't enough fans of X in that huge number. The population of LA means nothing for the Chargers if not enough of them are Chargers fans.

[AndrewMLind]

10 hours ago, colortv said:

 

"Los Angeles isn't a football town" is the one of the biggest misnomers in sports. Tell that to USC, UCLA, or the countless high level high school programs across the region.

 

At the most, it’s a fair-weather football town. 

UCLA (which finished 4-8 in 2019) averaged just 43,848 fans last season, the lowest number since they moved to the Rose Bowl in 1982. That’s just 54 percent of their stadium’s capacity. The Bruins highest average attendance in the last decade happened in 2014 (76,650), when they were a top-10 team. 
 

USC, meanwhile, went 8-5 but managed just 59,358 fans per game — the second-lowest since 1987, barely ahead of the 55,448 in 2018. That’s 76 percent of their stadium’s capacity, though it’s also worth noting renovations in 2018 actually reduced the capacity from 93,607 (which would equate to 63 percent). That pales in comparison to when the Trojans were among the best program in college football, averaging 91,480 fans in 2006 (they finished the year at No. 4 following a win in the Rose Bowl).

 

So, when compared to other places across the country that easily sell out every game no matter their record (with some managing more than 100,000 per), Los Angeles is by no means a full-fledged football town. And, sure, there’s no denying the city produces some great talent at the high school level and has some of the best prep programs in the country. But maybe USC and UCLA should do a better job at keeping those kids home, and then they’ll be better, once again fill their stadiums with fans and make your argument a little more compelling. 

[Old School Fool]

The reason Los Angeles isn't a "football town" is because of a lack of success with NFL teams and the existence of the Dodgers and Lakers who's legacies are far more richer than anything the Rams, Chargers and even Raiders could claim. If the Rams and Raiders didn't leave, kept building their history in LA and even had successful seasons then things might be different for how LA treats football.

[Ben in LA]

6 minutes ago, Old School Fool said:

...the existence of the Dodgers and Lakers who's legacies are far more richer than anything the Rams...

The only reason why the Dodgers and Lakers are in LA in the first place is partly due to the success of the Rams. They were here first. BUT...the purple and the Azul HAVE won a LOT more than the Rams ever have. If the Rams had won a few more Super Bowls (or NFL championships) things might be different.

[lahaye7]

6 hours ago, colortv said:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28998950/rams-coo-says-new-logos-colors-change-criticism

rams have already spent $ on the new logos for the stadium. No way they are going to change anything. The Rams can always tweak it in a couple years. I always wonder who exactly are the focus groups NIKE and teams are gauging for feedback on their unis / logos/ brands. 

[Kiltman]

On 4/3/2020 at 6:01 PM, the admiral said:

 

Reading is in the Philadelphia television market, which really doesn't cover as much of Pennsylvania as one might initially think:

 

I remember reading that Philly has one of the smallest RSN territories by area, being hemmed in by Pittsburgh, New York, and Baltimore/DC with not as much overlap in Pennsylvania as one might initially think. Compare with Southern California RSNs, where you have L.A. proper, San Bernardino-Riverside, Santa Barbara, and, if you're not competing with the Padres, San Diego.

Yea it's super small, it's crazy that it's still the 4th or 5th most households in the US.

 

Tv deals get weird in the middle of the state between the Steelers/Ravens/Eagles
Like if they are all playing a 1 o'clock game it throws it all off by county. In Lancaster you used to lose the Fox/CBS feed but get PHL17.
I think Harrisburg-Lancaster-Lebanon-York officially is a split territory with Baltimore.
It was nice to move closer to the city and not have to deal with it anymore a couple years ago.

[jws008]

16 hours ago, Gothamite said:

Of course Kroenke has the moral high ground.  St Lous failed to live up to their end of ten agreement, and then he paid for his own stadium.  Spanos was still trying to extort San Diego all the way out the door.
 

The only thing those two men share is a stadium. And even that isn’t the same. 

Of course, there's a certain lawsuit out there that argues that Kroenke and the NFL failed to live up to their own rules; and I would point out that thus far the courts have ruled against the league and Stan each time. 

[The_Admiral]

27 minutes ago, Kiltman said:

Yea it's super small, it's crazy that it's still the 4th or 5th most households in the US.

 

Tv deals get weird in the middle of the state between the Steelers/Ravens/Eagles
Like if they are all playing a 1 o'clock game it throws it all off by county. In Lancaster you used to lose the Fox/CBS feed but get PHL17.
I think Harrisburg-Lancaster-Lebanon-York officially is a split territory with Baltimore.
It was nice to move closer to the city and not have to deal with it anymore a couple years ago.

 

Yeah, I remember reading a few years ago that Harrisburg is officially a secondary market for the Ravens, so they have to carry all Ravens road games, even if they conflict with the Steelers, whom most people in south-central Pennsylvania would rather be watching. It's weird to think of that part of Pennsylvania being more in Baltimore/Washington's orbit than either big PA city.

[BBTV]

 

57 minutes ago, Kiltman said:

Yea it's super small, it's crazy that it's still the 4th or 5th most households in the US.

 

Tv deals get weird in the middle of the state between the Steelers/Ravens/Eagles
Like if they are all playing a 1 o'clock game it throws it all off by county. In Lancaster you used to lose the Fox/CBS feed but get PHL17.
I think Harrisburg-Lancaster-Lebanon-York officially is a split territory with Baltimore.
It was nice to move closer to the city and not have to deal with it anymore a couple years ago.

 

27 minutes ago, the admiral said:

 

Yeah, I remember reading a few years ago that Harrisburg is officially a secondary market for the Ravens, so they have to carry all Ravens road games, even if they conflict with the Steelers, whom most people in south-central Pennsylvania would rather be watching. It's weird to think of that part of Pennsylvania being more in Baltimore/Washington's orbit than either big PA city.

 

Philadelphia has been called the 'smallest big city' in the country, meaning for a metro area of 6 or 7M, it's "reach" isn't that far, and while it has a lot of transplants, it's far less than it's neighbors and biggest business and talent competitors NYC and DC.  I've been told by transplanted friends that Phila is a difficult place to integrate in because so many people know each other, vs DC where so many people are new there.  Not to say there aren't a significant amount of transplants, just not like those other places.

 

Also, the Phillies and Eagles never really marketed or even broadcasted much outside the immediate area, while Pittsburgh blasted their signals and had affiliates all over the state, meaning that area wise, PA is more Pittsburgh fans, vs Phila fans (which makes sense anyway, since from a socioeconomic perspective, I think Phila is an outlier in the state, and the rest of the state is probably closer to Pittsburgh.)

 

Also - since people are quoting numbers and market sizes:

 

LA market has 24M people?  The provided link is for all of SoCal, so we're including everything down to San Diego, which means the density is 424/sq mile - or basically nothing.

 

Phila, by comparison, has "only" around 7M, but a density of either 2,700 or at least >1,000 (depending on the math), and that includes Amish territory, where the # of people aren't even really counted, and the land is very vast and open.

 

 

I understand the argument that "out of 24M people, even if only 5M care about football, that's still better than most other teams", but if 3/4 of those 5M live super far away, that waters down the argument a bit.  If they're all crammed together, it's a lot easier to count on people going.  The result of which is Rams and Chargers games that serve as little more than road trips for visiting fans, which is fine for Kroenke, who as noted, only needs to care that it's being filled - not who's filling it - because it sure ain't mostly Rams fans, regardless of how well they're doing.

 

  

[kutztown]

16 minutes ago, BringBackTheVet said:

 

 

 

Philadelphia has been called the 'smallest big city' in the country, meaning for a metro area of 6 or 7M, it's "reach" isn't that far, and while it has a lot of transplants, it's far less than it's neighbors and biggest business and talent competitors NYC and DC.  I've been told by transplanted friends that Phila is a difficult place to integrate in because so many people know each other, vs DC where so many people are new there.  Not to say there aren't a significant amount of transplants, just not like those other places.

 

Also, the Phillies and Eagles never really marketed or even broadcasted much outside the immediate area, while Pittsburgh blasted their signals and had affiliates all over the state, meaning that area wise, PA is more Pittsburgh fans, vs Phila fans (which makes sense anyway, since from a socioeconomic perspective, I think Phila is an outlier in the state, and the rest of the state is probably closer to Pittsburgh.)

 

Also - since people are quoting numbers and market sizes:

 

LA market has 24M people?  The provided link is for all of SoCal, so we're including everything down to San Diego, which means the density is 424/sq mile - or basically nothing.

 

Phila, by comparison, has "only" around 7M, but a density of either 2,700 or at least >1,000 (depending on the math), and that includes Amish territory, where the # of people aren't even really counted, and the land is very vast and open.

 

 

I understand the argument that "out of 24M people, even if only 5M care about football, that's still better than most other teams", but if 3/4 of those 5M live super far away, that waters down the argument a bit.  If they're all crammed together, it's a lot easier to count on people going.  The result of which is Rams and Chargers games that serve as little more than road trips for visiting fans, which is fine for Kroenke, who as noted, only needs to care that it's being filled - not who's filling it - because it sure ain't mostly Rams fans, regardless of how well they're doing.

 

  

 

Philly vs everybody

[The_Admiral]

29 minutes ago, BringBackTheVet said:

Philadelphia has been called the 'smallest big city' in the country, meaning for a metro area of 6 or 7M, it's "reach" isn't that far, and while it has a lot of transplants, it's far less than it's neighbors and biggest business and talent competitors NYC and DC.  I've been told by transplanted friends that Phila is a difficult place to integrate in because so many people know each other, vs DC where so many people are new there.  Not to say there aren't a significant amount of transplants, just not like those other places.

 

St. Louis has a pretty wide sphere of influence in the Midwest but the place itself has that extremely insular Catholic-prep-school-never-ends culture, go figure

[monkeypower]

This thread has reminded me that this is season four as the new LA Chargers. I thought we were going on the third.

 

I guess that’s kind of telling.

[Gothamite]

1 hour ago, jws008 said:

Of course, there's a certain lawsuit out there that argues that Kroenke and the NFL failed to live up to their own rules; and I would point out that thus far the courts have ruled against the league and Stan each time. 

You seem to be conflating three lawsuits.  The first two were from people who bought PSLs and merchandise, and like most nuisance lawsuits those were settled out of court.
 

As for the third, St. Louis is desperate for a local jury to hear it, because they know thats their only hope of success.  They lost badly the last time they went before an independent arbitrator, after all.  Maybe they’ll convince a local jury to hurt the big bad NFL that wounded their pride. Doesn’t change the facts, though. 

[duxrcool048]

This is an interesting picture lol!